[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:05] DC: It takes the right skills and the right innovation to design and manage meaningful print marketing solutions. Welcome to Podcasts From the Printerverse, where we explore all facets of print and marketing that create stellar communications and sales opportunities for business success. I’m your host, Deborah Corn, the Intergalactic Ambassador to the Printerverse. Thanks for tuning in. Listen long and prosper.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:31] DC: Hey, everybody, welcome to Podcasts From the Printerverse. This is Deborah Corn, your Intergalactic Ambassador, and I have been waiting to do this podcast for several years. Today, I am joined by Craig Bower, the Marketing Director at Pep’s Pizza Company, the Creative Director and owner of Design That Rocks, and the creative force behind the International Print Day poster since at least 2016. It might be 2015. We will check our records later. His work has helped turn the event into a global print celebration. And this year’s poster proved it with the QR code that was on the poster scanned nearly 20,000 times in 20 countries. Twenty in 20, Craig.
[0:01:21] CB: Amazing.
[0:01:21] DC: Right? Incredible. Craig also owns Rub That Rocks, a line of handcrafted spice blends with packaging he designs himself. He’s also offering a beautifully printed catalog that brings the brand’s flavor and design together in perfect harmony. Craig is also the only designer to ever mock me for asking for the logo to be bigger, and he did it with a song. Ladies and gentlemen out there in the balcony, put your hands together. Craig Bower.
[0:02:01] CB: It’s fabulous to be here.
[0:02:03] DC: I am so happy to have you. What was the logo song?
[0:02:08] CB: It was make the logo bigger. A designer parody song on YouTube.
[0:02:15] DC: If any of you are designers out there, it is just fantastic. When someone makes that request, just send them that video. And Craig won that argument, everybody. The logo stayed the size he wanted it.
Let’s talk about your work at Pep’s Pizza Company first. You’re the Marketing Director there. First of all, do you get free pizza?
[0:02:37] CB: Every day, if I wanted it. Yes. Yes. Lots of free pizza, but I don’t overindulge as – that’d be a bad habit to get into, having pizza every day.
[0:02:45] DC: This is true. So, what do you do as the marketing director there?
[0:02:50] JR: So, as a marketing director, I’m responsible primarily for all of our packaging for our pizza brands and for all of our customer private label brands that we manufacture for customers. So, we are a pizza manufacturer, frozen pizza manufacturer, and we make several brands under our own brand names, Pep’s Pizza, and then a variety of other ones that I can’t disclose who we make them for, but they’re shipped all across the country. So, you’re probably familiar with some of them, just not knowing that you are.
[0:03:19] DC: I love it.
[0:03:19] JR: Yeah.
[0:03:21] DC: I don’t see Pep’s Pizza in Florida. So I’m assuming it’s a regional thing.
[0:03:25] JR: We are not in Florida. We’re in most states, but not down in Florida yet. Very tricky getting distribution for frozen pizza in Florida.
[0:03:33] DC: I could imagine.
[0:03:35] JR: Yeah, we have a lot of requests.
[0:03:36] DC: Probably quite some considerations to be made. I mean, even just getting a package if it’s sitting outside too long, it’s not so great in the summer around here.
[0:03:44] JR: Yeah. We primarily do Midwest brands. We’re a Midwest-based company. And if you look across the United States, the corridor of where frozen pizza is consumed the most it is in the Midwest states. So, you go into a grocery store in any of the Midwest states, and you’ll find 75, 80 different varieties of frozen pizzas. The freezer aisles are huge. You go to Texas or Florida, you might have two small freezer cases with frozen pizza, and that’s it.
[0:04:14] DC: True. We don’t have a lot of frozen pizza. Yeah.
[0:04:15] JR: Yeah.
[0:04:17] DC: Well, it makes sense. When there’s 10 feet of snow, you can’t go out and cook, right? And fresh food will maybe not last unless you put it out in the snow.
[0:04:26] JR: Yeah.
[0:04:26] DC: Kind of a full circle moment there. Okay. So, as the marketing director, are you helping create the promotions, the point of sale signage in grocery stores? Are you working with printers about labels and packaging that can go into a freezer?
[0:04:45] JR: Yes to all of the above. I spend a lot of time working and doing the physical design, proofing, pre-press, setup, working with the printers directly on all of our cartons, all of our labels, all of the nutritional information, the ingredient statements, making sure everything is legal and up to code for being on the store shelves, as well as managing social media for the company, doing graphics for social media, establishing marketing promotions and connections in different states with different radio, TV, whatever it might be. I coordinate a lot of that. Yeah.
[0:05:21] DC: You’re like your own full-service agency.
[0:05:23] JR: In some ways. In some ways. I’ve been around long enough that I’ve got enough experience in a variety of things that I can help out where I’m needed, and I can hire direct other agencies or people as I need them to step in and do things as I need.
[0:05:36] DC: Amazing. I mean, I love that for you. And that also makes sense why Design That Rocks is so successful, because you take your skills that you’ve been developing over the many years and take it to your own products and services. So, let’s talk about Design That Rocks. So, obviously, people can’t see, but we’re on video, and you’re sitting in what you call the Kiss room, which has the rock band Kiss’s memorabilia, paraphernalia, whatever you want to call it, all over. It looks like Jean Simmons’ office, quite frankly, from the reality show.
[0:06:16] JR: Probably like a 1/32nd of it. Yeah.
[0:06:19] DC: Yes. So, how did you formulate the idea for Design That Rocks? How long have you been in business? What kind of customers do you work with? I know these answers, but I want the people to know.
[0:06:32] JR: Yes. Yes. So, every graphic designer at some point in their career you start to, “Oh, I’m going to do some freelance work.” It’s part of the nature of what we do. And maybe 15, 18 years ago, I’d have to look at the exact date, but I was trying to formalize how to present myself or how to build a brand around what I wanted to do. And being a fan of rock music since a very young age, kind of was playing around with those kind of concepts. And I remember coming up with Design That Rocks as, “What a great slogan.”
And at that time, there’s a little bit of arrogance, I think, with that name. When you’re starting out, you’re like, “Oh, well, my design rocks and it’s better than everybody else’s.” It was a brief hesitation. How could I frame that? How could I go down that road without being – like I have a huge ego or something? Because I don’t. And I didn’t then. I consider myself a working-class designer. I learned pasting up on a table, and I’ve cut Rubilith, all the way through teaching students how to use Photoshop to do masks. I love to do things myself and dig into projects. I really wanted something that I could kind of frame things around and build a brand around.
And once I got the domain name and started thinking about the look, and the feel, and the language, and how I could do it, that’s really where it all kind of just kind of began to take shape. Kind of informally used it for a year or two before I kind of formed the LLC, and then started really branding it and really digging it.
[0:08:06] DC: And you work on a pretty specialized area of promotion.
[0:08:12] JR: I do. And one of the nice things about not doing Design That Rocks full-time, not having my own agency, is I’ve never been constrained by needing to make sales to make payroll, right? So, if something comes along where I don’t have time that month to work on it, or it’s a project I’m not feeling great about, or I start a project and this customer is really not working out well, so I just kind of dissolve the relationship, I don’t have to worry about eating the next day. So, it’s really offered me a lot of flexibility to be able to kind of pick and choose and work with people that I’m interested in and projects.
And most of my projects through all the years of doing Design That Rocks, no two are really the same. I mean, unless it’s the same customer with the same catalog or something. But I’ve really had a range of different customers, different projects, which has really expanded me well beyond just living in Green Bay, Wisconsin, where I reside. I’m doing things that are across the country or internationally in some cases, where I wouldn’t be in those places doing sales calls, you know.
[0:09:21] DC: A 100%. I thought that you really tried to help emerging bands and things like that, too.
[0:09:27] JR: Yeah. When I first started, that was one of the goals was really trying to work with musicians. And this was back, pre-internet takeover. And I worked with some, and I learned pretty quickly that if you are a smaller band getting signed, if you’re not signed, you don’t have money. You’re not going to do marketing. You’re putting it into your equipment and your gigs. If you just get signed, then the companies take over, and you don’t do any of it yourself. So, there really was a very small niche there for me that didn’t work out beyond a few clients. But I learned a lot. I had fun. Met some great people that I’m still connected with. But it quickly kind of moved away from just being focused on that, and really just a reflection of what I could do for other customers and entrepreneurs. I really love to help people.
[0:10:14] DC: Yeah. But it makes total sense what you’re saying. I mean, of course, you’re right. If they’re signed, the record label is going to take over. But prior to that, we still have t-shirts. There was a design the CD booklet for a while there. If anybody doesn’t know what a CD is, can you believe we have to actually say that now? Look it up.
[0:10:35] JR: Yeah, it comes back.
[0:10:35] DC: It’s called the compact disc. Are they coming back? Really?
[0:10:39] JR: They are coming back. Yeah. Yeah.
[0:10:40] DC: Oh, I’m glad I didn’t throw out my CD player. It’s in a box.
[0:10:42] JR: No, they’re coming. You can get Taylor Swift’s new records on CD. You get a lot of – they’re coming back now. Yeah.
[0:10:47] DC: Really? Okay. That’s a little crazy. Okay. So, what is one thing that printers should understand better about designers?
[0:11:01] JR: I still see a lot of division out there between a lot of printers, understanding that designers know what they want but may not know how to get there. And a lot of times there’s this back and forth still of, “Well, I want this.” And rather than explaining why it would be better to do it another way, sometimes the printer – the first reaction is kind of butt heads a little bit. And I find –
[0:11:26] DC: May I ask? Does it sound like this, “No, you don’t want to do that?”
[0:11:29] JR: Yes. Yes, it does. And time and time again, my relationships – and I’ve been doing this a long time, but my relationships with my printers are gold. I cherish them. I work with them. I go back to them. You establish a relationship. So, you don’t have those kinds of discussions anymore. It’s more, “What are you trying to accomplish?” “Well, this is what I would like to do.” “Oh, here’s some ideas on how you can do that.” And you have a dialogue back and forth on what that is.
Younger designers coming up, I think, nowadays are very apprehensive to talk to printers and get to know the process because they want to do everything digital. It’s all Facebook. It’s all social media. It’s all websites. And that’s all fine. That’s all great. But print is alive and well and should be an active piece of your marketing strategy. And just having that communication with the printer is very important.
[BREAK]
[0:12:29] DC: Girls Who Print provides women in print and graphic communications with information resources, events, and mentorship to help them navigate their careers and the industry. As the largest independent network of women in print and a nonprofit organization, our global mission to provide resources, skill-building, education, and support for women to lead, inspire, and empower has never been stronger or more accessible. Through our member platform and program, as well as regional groups forming around the world, your access to Girls Who Print is just a click away. Gentlemen, you are most welcome to join us as allies. Get involved and get empowered today. Link in the show notes.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:13:16] DC: It’s so interesting that you mentioned that. That was actually the exact situation that set me off on creating Project Peacock, which was to go to the designers and the creative people and the buyers and the agencies to let them know what was possible in print. Because the first time I went to the first trade show as a person on this side of things, the first booth I saw, I was like, “Oh my god, that’s so cool.” And they were staring at me like I was crazy. And it turns out it was a wide-format technology that was printing metallic ink. And I’m freaking out. And the guy’s like, “This has been around for 5 years.” And I was like, “What?”
And I went to the next booth, and I saw something I’d never heard of. And it was at that point I realized that my entire 25 years in advertising agencies that I trusted everything a printer told me. And I’m not saying they weren’t telling me the truth, but they were telling me things based upon making the sale and using the equipment they had. For example, when digital printing first came out and we’re like, “Oh, we want to try this digital print.” “No. Oh, you don’t want to do that.” And then 30 reasons that terrify a print buyer to ever use the technology. And so we didn’t for years because they scared us enough. And then one day, one of them got a digital press and came over, and now everything was better. And that’s why they invested in it. Now, it was time to do it.
So you’re absolutely right that it is such a disservice to everybody for a printer, not just to stop and explain things, although they’re never going to say, “We can’t do it this way because we don’t have that equipment.” And that’s okay. I used to say to the creative directors, “Okay, I understand what you want to do. I’m not sure if we could do it that way. Let me make some phone calls, and I’ll get back to you.” And everybody remains calm.
[0:15:15] CB: Right. As a creative, I have so many barriers in my way already. I do not need the printer putting a barrier in my way. I’m dealing with a budget. I’m dealing with a client. I’m dealing with maybe a remote location, a budget, and a timeline. I’m dealing with these things already. So when I’m at a point of wanting to discuss something with a print vendor, I’m really looking for help. And I understand if you can’t do it, I understand you may have limitations or whatever, but that dialogue needs to go back and forth because then when I have something, I know where to go. I know where to go next time. And if you don’t want me to bother you, then I won’t bother you.
[0:15:54] DC: Yeah. I mean, it would just be so nice to hear. I mean, I think I’ve only heard one or two times, “This is not a great fit for us.” And it was a web press or something. And other than that, it was either the printer trying to convince me to do it the way that they could do it, or having me change my project completely so they could do it. And you’re right. It didn’t feel very collaborative, and it doesn’t serve anybody in the long run because now there are misunderstood things going out there with people who purchase print or design for print, and they might – somebody told them – I mean, imagine, I’ve actually told people, “No, we can’t use digital printing.” I hope that they’re not still thinking that today.
But for the couple of years that we were working together, that was the situation because the printers weren’t being collaborative. The best question, you’re right, they can ask is, “Okay, I understand. This is what I understand you’re saying is the goal of the project. To get people to an event. To be something that sits on somebody’s desk. To create an emotional connection.” Whatever it might be. And then work it from there.
Are you getting any – I don’t want to say pushes. But are you getting any nudges, “Oh, you should add a shiny thing to it. You should add a varnish to it.” Are printers showing you things with varnish? I mean, pizzas? I guess it has a coating in the thing, but it’s not really shiny stuff that goes in the freezer, right?
[0:17:27] CB: No, I have some designs where I may do a gloss or a matte spot, depending on what it is or what the customer is. But I mean, no, they’re not. But I think in my situation, the primary printers I work with, they know that I know what to ask for if I want it. So they’re likely not pushing it to me. If I went to a new one, I could see them pushing whatever new thing that they have.
But one of the things I’ve noticed in my 30-plus-year career, I’ve always – I guess to back a couple of it, I’ve always been lucky enough and purposefully only worked in-house. I’ve never worked at an agency, okay? And there are specific reasons for that, in my opinion. So as such, as you work in-house and generally being either the only person or one of two or three people that – I have designers working under me or things like that. But you have to ask more questions. You have to reach out and you have to establish those partnerships because you don’t have a team like an agency does that’s eight levels deep that everybody’s got a little piece of the pie to do things. I’ve also noticed those people that are in those eight layers that the agencies are often the ones who won’t listen to the printer when they’re giving them advice.
[0:18:51] DC: Totally.
[0:18:53] CB: “No, I want it like this. This is how I want it.” And that agency mentality and the way agencies are structured, they kind of formulate that belief in people. Like, “This is the way I want it. And this is the way it’s going to be.” And I think I’ve been lucky enough to having been in-house my entire career and still am. I rely on my vendors for that information. I rely on them to tell me what’s new, what’s their new press, what’s their new capability, what can they do? And maybe I’m using it for Pep’s. Maybe I’m using it for Design That Rocks. Maybe I’m using it for Rub That Rocks. Or maybe I’m telling one of thousands of people in my network, “Hey, this is where you should go because they do this,” you know?
So it’s kind of where you come from and how you work kind of dictates how well you’re willing to listen to other people help you, whether you feel they’re helping you or they’re against, things like that. Just things I’ve noticed over the years.
[0:19:49] DC: I worked inside an in-house agency, or like the corporate communications department, the procurement department, a couple of times. And you’re right, it’s a much cushier job, I have to tell you, because you’re the client and the buyer. So, it’s not like I need to run this by 30 people. You have your marching orders. And it’s kind of crazy. When I worked in the procurement department for Redken Fifth Avenue for L’Oréal, we didn’t even get involved in the specs. We were just told what to purchase, and we purchased it from a list of vendors that we were allowed to use. And that was it. I mean, it was a very relaxing job because I didn’t have to – I mean, I still had to triple bid, of course, but I was triple bidding through approved vendors. So, it made life very easy. And not a lot of people give you a problem if you’re the client and the buyer. So, it works out. So, good for you.
[0:20:46] CB: Yeah.
[0:20:48] DC: What’s one thing designers should understand better about printers?
[0:20:54] CB: I just had this conversation with the printer last week, actually, and we were dealing with a project with a customer of mine, and the one thing that I understood that the printer thanked me for that most agency – he specified, “Most agencies don’t ever think of what you just said, Craig, and that was we can’t wait on this answer because the press is down, and when the press is down, that is going to cost them money. So, we need to keep their press going. So, you need to make a decision now.” And my printer sales guy, he’s like, “Nobody has ever sat in here at a press check and told their customer that. You’re the first one I’ve ever heard say that.” So, a big thing I think designers need to realize is when it comes to printers in a printing press and on the printing floor, time is money. They’ve got projects before you and after you, and you fit in this slot, so you need to have your stuff together and be ready to go.
[0:21:51] DC: I think that that is a great example of that. And you’re totally right that most of – if I’m an agency, I’m from an agency, and I’m standing at a press check and something’s happening and somebody says that to me, I just look at them and I say, “You just stop that press and let me go make phone calls because I cannot –” yes, ultimately, they’re going to listen to my recommendation because I’m the director of production. But they’re not going to care less about that money situation at all. It’s a different beast.
But you’re right. I think that I’m not a designer, but I’ve been in that realm for long enough. And I think what you’re saying is truly correct. If your printer is actually a partner and not just a vendor, then I truly believe they have your best interest in mind. Even if it’s telling you not to do something because they can’t do it, and if you want to trust them with your project, then they’re telling you how they can do it and deliver the results that you want. But you have to listen to them at some point. I mean, not about is it too blue or too green. I mean, if you’re on a press check, that’s up to you.
But if they’re suggesting you use a different paper, if they’re suggesting that for a real reason, not like, for example, I’m going to emboss something and my paper’s not thick enough. Not just because it’s, “Oh, it’s too expensive. You’re never going to want that paper.” Not that. But yeah, I think that is a great point. And once a printer knows that you’re not against them, I mean, so many times in the agencies, it’s like, “Whose side are you on, the printers or the agency?” And I’m like, “I’m on everybody’s side.” And nobody’s wrong here. It’s just we’ve got to work it out. I think that was an absolutely great point. Anything to add?
[0:23:45] CB: There’s been many times I’ve been on a press check, packaging, a good-sized press being held up. And I’ve got – because our customers are across the country, so they’re not flying here. They’ll allow me to do the press check for them. So, I’ll go and I’m on the phone with a national brand, holding up the press, communicating to everybody, from the pressman, to the sales rep, to the brand manager on the line that I’m talking to, going through everything, explaining what’s going on. And you have to be very conscious of how much time you’re taking on both sides.
And if there’s something that’s got to be pulled, then you have a conversation with the press, “Hey, can you guys pull and run this and fill the time in? How’s it going to impact you? What’s that cost going to be?” And you do all that in real time while it’s all going on. And you can only do that if you’re building relationships with your print vendors. If you’re just working with the one that’s a penny cheaper, you can’t do any of that.
[0:24:37] DC: And even if you’re working with one that’s a penny cheaper, you could still develop that into a relationship. But if it’s only a transactional relationship from either side, then good luck with what you get. I agree with you 100%.
[0:24:51] CB: Right.
[0:24:52] DC: I was once speaking to a bunch of packaging printers, and they said that there is a lack of knowledge on the packaging buyer’s end of how to create a packaging schedule to actually get it into something that ends up with it being where it needs to be when it’s supposed to be there. So, do you think that it would be beneficial for printers who deal with packaging people to, I don’t know, give them knowledge about production schedules and different components and how long they might take?
[0:25:32] CB: I think it’s imperative if you’re not an experienced package designer. And again, to back up a little bit, my formal degree I have a BFA in package design. That’s what my degree is in. So for many years, I started my career. Yeah, I wanted to do design, but I really dove into doing pre-press. I got involved in the print industry very young. I learned how to separate, do pre-press work. I learned about substrates, and materials, and coatings. And I learned about all this stuff before I ever designed anything for that.
When it comes time to design it, you know what you can do and what you can’t do. So it made me a better designer in the long run. But you have to know so many things in the packaging world that’s different from just traditional offset. For example, if you’re printing flexo. I spent 20 years of my career was doing flexographic pre-press. So I really learned how to do – when you compare them, offset to flexo, offsets like, “That’s an easy day.” You start getting into flexo, and you start getting into dot gain, and substrates, and trap amounts, and just all the little nuances you have to deal with that are just a little bit different. You have to know at least this core level of both substrate packaging type of information and just pre-press information that’s different, minimum type sizes, things like that. Just little basic things that printers can share that.
Yeah. I mean, most printers will give you a – they got a PDF of a couple pages that give you their specs for their presses and those types of things. But yeah, welcoming those discussions and not being afraid to help educate a designer if they’re willing to listen, that’s imperative.
[0:27:20] DC: Or giving them a schedule that they can build upon in some way.
[0:27:24] CB: Yeah. And they just have to not be afraid that the designer is just learning for free. Because sometimes it’s proprietary. Sometimes they don’t want to share too much because they don’t know where this is going, how it’s going to be. But for me, if I’m at that level where I’m asking for that type of information, we’re beyond that. I’ve got a deadline. And packaging, the deadlines are extremely important because most packaging is immediately shipped to wherever the product is being manufactured.
And for example, as a frozen pizza manufacturer, we’re a just-in-time manufacturer. We’re in and out of truckloads every day. It’s not sitting stored for months. If you’re working particularly in the food industry, things like that, where you got a schedule of when this packaging is coming from the printer, any delays affect that. That affects production, that affects distribution, and that affects when the consumer can buy it on the shelf. It is a direct domino effect if you’re on that press check and you got to pull that job because something’s not right. And you never have enough time buffered in. There’s never enough time. So, you’re always going to affect something. So, you have to be aware of that. That relationship with that printer, your knowledge as a designer, your willingness to listen, and your willingness to stand your ground when you need it to be a certain way. All those things are very important.
[BREAK]
[0:28:47] DC: Are you looking to elevate your game, take your bottom-line customer relationships, and events to the next level? Then, I want to work with you. I’m Deborah Corn, the Intergalactic Ambassador to the Printerverse. I engage with a vast, global audience of print and marketing professionals across all stages of their careers. They are seeking topical information and resources, new ways to serve their customers and connect with them, optimize processes for their communications and operations, and they need the products and services and partnership you offer to get to their next level. Print Media Centr offers an array of unique opportunities that amplify your message and support your mission across the Printerverse. Let’s work together, bring the right people together, and move the industry forward together. Link in the show notes. Engage long and prosper.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:29:49] DC: You mentioned it before. You send in your specs to get a quote. And the printer comes back. It’s like, “Well, a lot of that was very expensive, so I changed the specs.” I was like, “No.” Now, it took like 6 weeks for us to get that color approved by the client. There’s a brand standards around this now. I understand you’re trying to help, but now you’ve just messed me up because I need three estimates before I can even present it to anybody. So I always say, “Give me what I ask for and then show me a better way of doing it.” But you’re right, printers don’t – especially lately, if they do that and then you don’t print with them, they get a little testy about that if you’re abusing the situation. It’s transactional, and you don’t have that leeway.
[0:30:37] CB: Right. And you go back the next time, they’re like, “Well, whatever happened to that last job?” Those types of things.
[0:30:42] DC: Am I going to get this one now?
[0:30:45] CB: Yeah. And to me, if I’m working with a printer – and I understand quoting takes a lot of work. I understand what goes into it because I quote jobs for my business. I quote print jobs for my business. I understand what’s involved. But if your constant answer back to me is, “Oh, it’s still on estimating. It’s going to take another 48 hours to get whatever, whatever.” I’m like, “What thing can you buy now in this world that we’re waiting 48 hours for?” I’m sorry, but it’s –
[0:31:12] DC: And that’s fast, Craig. It’s usually 3 days.
[0:31:15] CB: Yeah. And it’s like people are going to go somewhere else.
[0:31:19] DC: Where they can order and see how much it costs as they’re putting in what they want.
[0:31:24] CB: Yes. Yeah. You got to monitor that stuff and manage it and help educate whatever vendor you’re working with as like, “Well, there’s a reason I need it tomorrow. Because if I don’t get it tomorrow, I’m probably going to lose to somebody else who is going to get it tomorrow.” It’s just the nature of how it goes.
[0:31:42] DC: You and I could talk about this for a long time about how printers can set everybody up for success and to keep working with them. There’s one price if you give us a disc with a month. Not a disc. A file with a month. There’s one price if you give us a file with two weeks. There’s one price if you give us a file two days before you need it, and so on and so forth. But they don’t really like to push back on stuff like that.
[0:32:05] CB: No. And it’s so strange because most designers love going to a printer. They love going on a press check. They love being in that environment. It’s creative. It’s inspiring. When I have press checks, my whole day is, “Oh, this is great. I get to go in and do what I love to do and talk to the press guy, shake his hand and tell him, ‘You guys are running a great – you’re doing a great job,’” those types of things. Designers love that kind of interaction. So, I never quite understood why it became such a challenging thing for so many to have that communication, but they did.
[0:32:38] DC: Look, you’re a designer. You know that you guys can be pains in the butts sometimes.
[0:32:42] CB: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
[0:32:44] CB: My favorite story is I had an art director at an agency when there was still match prints, and he went to 27 match prints at $600 a pop because he invented a color, bluish-green, on his computer screen, and nothing was matching in the match prints. And I’m not even kidding you when I tell you, I was calling up the color house we were dealing with, and I was like, “He wants to remove two yellow.” I’m not even kidding. Okay. Now, 2 hours till the match print comes, sit – I mean, we sat there all night. It was the craziest thing I have ever done. But what are you supposed to do when it’s the creative director, the art director? There’s nothing you can do about it. Which leads me to my next question. How do you know when a project is done? When do you stop tweaking it?
[0:33:39] CB: You’re talking like a design project. When I’m working on a design.
[0:33:42] DC: Yeah.
[0:33:43] CB: I mean, ultimately, it comes down to when the client approves it, obviously. Getting it to a point of I’ve learned over the years, don’t ever present a client with a design that you don’t 100% think will work effectively for that customer, because that is the one they’re going to pick, right? So, you need to – I always make sure, yeah, if I’m doing logos or brochure, whatever it might be, catalog, I make sure it’s something that I would be proud to represent that I did, that it communicates the message and is effective before I say, “Yeah, it’s done. I’m going to go for a final approval on this.” It’s just the nature of how it is. People will always choose something based on emotion. And it could be the best logo in the world, but if it’s got blue in it, they hate blue. “I’m not choosing it.” So, you have to navigate those things and make sure. I think that’s when it’s done. When I get it to a point and can send it, that’s when it’s done.
[0:34:45] DC: So, I really want to turn this conversation to Rub That Rocks now, which is, by the way, I am a customer. I am a consumer of Rub That Rocks. And I love Rub That Rocks.
[0:35:00] CB: Awesome.
[0:35:01] DC: And so, first of all, I want to tell you that the other day, I had a little accident with my rub, but something incredible happened. I mixed Sweet Surprise Wings O’mine and Like Paradise Chicken Strips, mixed together.
[0:35:23] CB: Oh, okay.
[0:35:24] DC: Oh my god. So, I think there should be like a blend option, like special times a year, because you don’t want to make more skews, I’m sure. But I have to tell you this thing, it was so good. It was sweet, but it had a little kick to it. It was amazing.
[0:35:44] CB: Yeah. Awesome. Well, that’s good to hear.
[0:35:46] DC: Oh, yeah. Then I need to tell everybody that I am completely obsessed with the Sugar Me Sweet rub for – I guess you could use it on anything, but I use it on baby back ribs that I make in the air fryer. I did some research for our podcast, and I just had to re-up on my rub. So I sent Craig all my steps last night for cooking my ribs, which were delicious by the way. So, thank you so much. What made you get into the barbecue business, the rub business?
[0:36:24] CB: Yeah. So, maybe eight years ago, seven years ago, something like that, I’m kind of a foodie guy. I do all the cooking in our household. I’m the chef. And I do a lot of grilling. And I didn’t have a smoker at that stage. I was just grilling and cooking. And I had started making my own couple of rubs just for myself. I’d made some and used it, and then I was like, “Oh, I’m going to make it again.” And so I made a little bit more bigger batch, and I kept it. And I was using it on different things that I was cooking.
And that year, I had two clients for Design That Rocks that, in the course of the conversation, I had happened to mention – kind of like in Octoberish, I had mentioned in a meeting. I was like, “Oh, I’ve been making this rub and kind of whatever, whatever.” And they were like, “Oh, I have to try it sometime.” And I’m like, “Yeah.”
For Christmas that year, I ended up for three clients I had, I bought just some brown pouches, and I made a quick label, and I whipped up a couple of batches, and I gave it to them as a thank you at Christmas. And by February, March, all three of them had come back to me, and they’re like, “Oh my god, why aren’t you selling this? This is delicious.” And I was like, “Well, I’d have to do some branding, and design, and get a website done.” And they’re like, “Yeah, but you do all that.” I’m like, “Yeah, that’s true.” So, I just thought about it for a while and kind of built off of the That Rocks theme that I have. I’ve got Print That Rocks, and Design That Rocks, and Brand That Rocks. So, I kind of formulated Rub That Rocks. I’m like, “Okay, that’s catchy.”
I started doing it. And then it was a long process to get the name trademarked. It took about a year and a half to get that secured because there was somebody in Colorado that had a name registered that was something that rocked, spice that rocked, or something similar, but different. And this person had stopped doing it. From what you could tell on their Facebook page, it was like a weekend farmers market kind of a person. They never really done much with it. But because of the way the trademark system works, there’s like a six-month waiting period for it to expire. And then there’s another six months that they could come back and pay triple the costs and regain their trademark if they wanted. So I had to wait through the process.
And then once it was formal that I could use that name, that’s when I really started changing the packaging and really looking at what I could do and kind of doing it differently. And it’s just kind of grown from there. I don’t spend years working on it. I work on it every month. I do a little bit here and there. And I expanded the rubs. And probably my biggest reason for not expanding quickly is I do everything myself. And I test everything as I go. So I don’t just throw something together and sell it. I’ll cook it five times and make sure it’s what I would want to eat before I put it out there with my name on it, because I’m not going to put something out there that I wouldn’t eat.
[0:39:15] DC: I’d like to get in on that test kitchen situation because these things are amazing. So, your packaging has gone through a bit of an evolution in the sense that you’ve just introduced pouches, which I love, by the way, because you can seal them. The other stuff comes in cans.
[0:39:34] CB: Correct.
[0:39:34] DC: Which is interesting, too. I’ve always complained that you can’t shake it. But you know what I did? I went on Amazon and bought shakers. So, now I have.
[0:39:41] CB: There you go.
[0:39:42] DC: I have a place to put your rub. So, let’s talk about the packaging. Are we shifting everything to pouches? What are you going to be doing with that?
[0:39:53] CB: No. So, there’s eight varieties that are available in just cans, in tins, resealable tins. And I did do a lot of research and some market research with customers to find out would a shaker be better, because most rubs and spices are in shakers. And a lot of the feedback I got was no, that they love it in the tin because they just use a spoon and they can measure out exactly how much they want to put in the recipe versus shaking it on.
[0:40:18] DC: Oh my god, the amateurs. Amateurs, all of you. A teaspoon.
[0:40:24] CB: Yeah. So, I left that on there. And the metal tin container relates to the rock and roll, the heavy metal theme of all the rubs.
[0:40:32] DC: Oh, I didn’t get that. Yeah.
[0:40:33] CB: Yeah. So, it kind of connects to that. The pouches are actually – they’re just like individual servings. Each one comes with a recipe for two bucks. You can buy it, try the chicken strips, the flavor that you want to try.
[0:40:49] DC: Well, get two. Get Sweet Surprise Wings O’Mine and Paradise Chicken Strips, and mix them together.
[0:40:53] CB: Mix them together. Yeah. Which is a great idea. Yeah, I haven’t tried that.
[0:40:57] DC: I thought I had too many chicken wings and I needed more rub, so that’s why I mixed them together, but I didn’t. But it was amazing. And your labels and your packaging are beautiful. And the names. American Thighs is a great name. What’s the squealer one?
[0:41:15] CB: Backstage squealer.
[0:41:16] DC: Backstage squealer.
[0:41:17] CB: Backstage squealer. Yeah.
[0:41:18] DC: Yeah. I mean, they’re all delicious. I have a lemon pepper pouch on deck for my next thing I’m going to try. I’ve actually not tried that one, but I do have the lemon pepper in the can, which I do think so.
[0:41:33] CB: Sure.
[0:41:34] DC: Okay, cool. What have you learned from being the designer, the brand owner, the packaging designer, the manager, the print buyer of your own brand? And especially about selling your product, and how do you do that?
[0:41:52] CB: I’ve learned that, as any entrepreneur, you have skills in certain areas. And other areas, you do have zero skills, right? I’ve learned to really be open to people’s input and listen to what people are saying, and to ask for help when it’s certain areas that I do not understand. It’s no different than an entrepreneur coming to me, “Look, I’m an artist. I do paintings. I want a website. Can you help me with my social media?” Whatever. I’m helping them with things that they don’t know, even though they know how to do what they’re doing really well.
So, I may know how to do things I’m doing really well. I can do a website. I can do the packaging. But getting it into a retail store, getting further exposure. What’s it going to cost me to get on a shelf? Those types of things. So, just being open to listening to others and using your network that you can get information from, because you don’t know it all. You’ll think you do. You’ll think it should be this way, “Oh, I’m going to run an Instagram ad, and I’m going to get 50 orders.” No, you’re not. So you’ve got to be open to those kinds of things. It’s like any entrepreneur, you have to have that ability to listen, and learn, and pivot, and know when to invest and when not to.
[0:43:02] DC: Yeah. So, you have invested in a printed catalog, and you have a new one coming out, if I understand correctly.
[0:43:07] CB: I do. Yeah. Last year, for the holidays, was my first time I printed one and mailed it out. The years before that, I primarily just did social media ads. But knowing the printing industry like I do and knowing the statistics and knowing that people love getting catalogs in the mail, I thought, “I’m going to do this. I’m going to try it.” And it was the most successful Christmas season I’ve had.
[0:43:28] DC: I think that’s when I learned about the pouch rubs from that catalog.
[0:43:31] CB: Yeah, they were new last year. Late last year, I came out with that.
[0:43:34] DC: And I bought every single flavor you had in a pouch and plus my stash of sugary sweet, which I cannot live without.
[0:43:41] CB: It’s a great way for people to try stuff that’s not – they don’t have to invest in a whole bunch of it. And we all go to the grocery store and buy single-serve packets of seasoning for different things. So, it’s a natural evolution of what I want it to be.
[0:43:56] DC: I want like a five-pound bag with a resealable, though. Just saying.
[0:43:59] CB: Well, and I’ve done those. I’ve done bulk for people. People that do competition smoking on weekends and things like that, I’ve done bulk mixes for them and custom builds for them. Sure.
[0:44:09] DC: That is so cool.
[0:44:10] CB: Yeah.
[0:44:10] DC: Oh my god. You’re in the barbecue circuit.
[0:44:13] CB: Yeah. And I’ve gotten into doing corporate gifts. Someone, “I got $35 per person for six people. Can you put together these gift boxes for me?” And they’re all put together, gift wrapped, and shipped with a note or whatever you want in them. A great way to help people out that way, and also spread the word. Put a coupon in there. They can come back and get a discount if they order. Things like that.
[0:44:34] DC: And your packages come with a little handwritten thank you on a card? With the last one, I got a sticker and a button. So, you’re always giving little gifts to people. I have a suggestion for a gift.
[0:44:46] CB: Yeah. Okay.
[0:44:48] DC: Do QR codes on a magnet that go to your site. So, I could just reorder by scanning it when I realize when I go into my pantry and I’m like, “Oh my god, I’m using the last of this.” I could just go to my refrigerator and go right to the order page.
[0:45:04] CB: That’s a good idea. Yeah. Okay.
[0:45:07] DC: I know it’s not very hard to type Rubs That Rock into a browser, but I’m saying it’s like one of those things you could do right then and there instead of forgetting about it until the next time you go into your – wherever you keep your spices, and there’s none there, which is what happened to me. That is why I was like, “The website’s not letting me check out. I’m having a crisis, because I run out of my rub.”
[0:45:29] CB: And most people who have spices like that, like barbecue guys, they have a hundred of them. It’s more of a collection. We buy all sorts of them. So, you’re not really top of mind necessarily to reorder when you’re out. They just go on to a different one. So, it’s really about remarketing to them, sending them things, sending them emails, sending brochures, sending things in the mail to keep them aware that you exist, so they don’t forget about you.
[0:45:54] DC: Well, I only buy your rub. But I do get the Hinders. I think it’s called Hinders. The garlic, salt, and pepper original blend is just for like a roast beef or something like that, which works really good. So, you should make that one, too. That I can buy everything from you.
[0:46:13] CB: I got a lot of ideas. But boy, I hate to – the hardest thing to do for salespeople is to sell what you have, right? We always want to make new things, you know? I’ve got so many ideas for the pouches and different taco meat, taco recipes, and different things I could do. So, we’ll see. We’ll see where it goes.
[0:46:27] DC: Okay. Well, I don’t eat fish, so I vote fish off the island to work in something else.
[0:46:32] CB: Okay. Oh, that fish rub is good, though. It’s good.
[0:46:34] DC: I just don’t eat fish, but I’m sure it’s delicious. I think I have one because I ordered a gift box, like a collection. I think I have one. I haven’t opened it. Sorry. Because I don’t eat fish. But maybe I could put it in tuna fish. I bet you it would be good.
[0:46:49] CB: You could. You could also put it on veggies. It doesn’t have anything with fish in it. I mean, it’s –
[0:46:52] DC: Oh, no, no. Yeah. Okay, that’s –
[0:46:54] CB: Yeah, it’s a lighter flavor. It would be good on – I’ve used it on veggies before. It’s good on those.
[0:47:00] DC: Okay, I’m going to go for that, and I will report back.
[0:47:03] CB: All right, sounds good.
[BREAK]
[0:47:06] DC: News from the Printerverse delivers topical sales and marketing insight along with plenty of printspiration one time a month to inboxes everywhere. Our contributors cover the industry and the future of print media and marketing with strategy for strengthening your customer relationships, better targeting of your prospects, and practical advice for helping your business grow. Printspiration is just a click away. Subscribe to News from the Printerverse at printmediacentr.com. Print long and prosper.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:47:41] DC: In the beginning of this podcast, I mentioned that our 2025 International Print Day poster included a dynamic QR code from a digital link, which was scanned almost 20,000 times in 20 countries. And that you have been designing the International Print Day poster for at least 10 years or – I mean, more than 10. But at least 10.
[0:48:08] CB: Yeah.
[0:48:09] DC: I know that this started a long time ago, and I just asked you, I was like, “Hey, you want to design a poster?” But you have been there for me every single year, and you have delivered every single year on the only direction being, “Here’s the hashtag for the theme, and this is what it means. Have a nice day, Craig. See you. See you when I see you.” I mean, how do you think about it since it’s going to the entire printing industry?
[0:48:43] CB: I try to keep it simple from a design standpoint because it’s a quick message. People want to be able to customize it or get it out there. It’s got to be something quick. I do try to keep it in that CMYK color span just because that’s what we think of when we think of printing, even with digital and wide-format stuff. Still, you see the CMYK imagery, and that’s automatically what you think of. Line art tends to work very well for that kind of thing. It’s just trying to find an image that kind of conveys whatever that theme is, whatever it is that we’re talking about, and just not trying to overdo it.
[0:49:21] DC: You’re a fan of distressed fonts.
[0:49:26] CB: Yeah, I think I am.
[0:49:27] DC: I think you are. I mean, your rub has it.
[0:49:30] CB: As long as they’re legible. Yeah, as long as they’re legible. But yes. Yeah.
[0:49:34] DC: I like them, too. I was just wondering if you had a reason for it.
[0:49:38] CB: No, I think it gives it a little more unique interest. And I think a lot of times in the packaging world and in the world I live my major time of my space in, we don’t use a lot of stuff like that. Being able to have a client that says, “Oh, this is the only limitation. Okay, well, I’m going to – let’s just throw it out there. Let’s see how it looks.” Yeah.
[0:50:02] DC: I think we collaborate pretty well as well, other than the make the logo bigger moment that we had.
[0:50:10] CB: Sometimes you do need to make the logo bigger, but not all the time.
[0:50:13] DC: All right. All right. Fine. I hear you. But I really enjoy working with you because of that. I am very careful when I work with creatives not to try to box them into something, and just explain what this is supposed to capture, what visually somebody should get from it if they’re just looking at it, and stay out of it until I see something. Then I can tweak from there. And we had an interesting situation this year, which you actually came up with something I really loved, which was because we were basing it on printing smart with print and AI and all of that stuff coming along. And you had a very – I thought it was a genius idea to make the poster a prompt. But we couldn’t make it work. So we had to let it go, right?
[0:51:06] CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was a good idea.
[0:51:08] DC: I love it.
[0:51:09] CB: But probably needed some more exploration. And I don’t think it would have been as effective in the long run as what we did.
[0:51:16] DC: Yeah, I think it came out great. So, if anybody hasn’t seen the poster, it’s still up at internationalprintday.org. And you can scan that. And I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Okay, Craig, to wrap this up, I want to do a lightning round with you.
[0:51:32] CB: Lightning round. Okay.
[0:51:33] DC: Lightning round. Craig has no idea what I’m about to ask him. First thing you ever designed that made you think, “Huh, I’m good at this.”
[0:51:44] CB: It was probably high school, working on like a newspaper kind of things for the student newspaper. That was probably the first thought process that went down that road.
[0:51:55] DC: Were people reinforcing that, saying, “Great job?” Or were you just looking at it saying, “Hey, this is kind of cool.”
[0:52:01] CB: No, the teachers were reinforcing it. I was in the advanced art, that path. I was an art music kid. So, I was going down that road. But then I went to college, and I was an accounting major my first semester. I switched gears completely and then finally did a lot of research. What could I make a career out of? Went to the library back in those days and researched. Came up with package design. Changed my major the second semester. And that was it.
[0:52:27] DC: Yeah, good choice. What is the most underrated color in design?
[0:52:32] CB: Underrated color. You know, I would probably say the use of black and white, I think, is underrated. I think, oftentimes, we’re going to throw every font in there and every color of the rainbow in there. And a lot of times, you can say a lot more with a lot less.
[0:52:52] DC: I answer that question because somebody asked me once, and I was like, “White space is the underused color.” Coming from me, Craig. Me, who’s like, “Put everything all over the place and make it bigger.” What is your dream collaboration in the print world?
[0:53:09] CB: Dream collaboration. I would love to work with – we talked about this maybe once before, when we did a project with Rico, I think, on some press they were doing with some new capabilities.
[0:53:24] DC: Yeah, it’s the International Print Day poster I have behind me from 2015. Yeah.
[0:53:27] CB: That’s the one, yeah. I would love to be able to work with a company, like a press manufacturer, to be involved with their development, their testing, their trials, and all the stuff they do with their printers, where I’m working in the building with them and the press is right next to me, and I’m working with the ink guy and the press guy, and we’re collaborating. And my part of that whole process is making designs and real-world products that they would be printing. Because so often, what I see are these fancy design things that don’t relate to anything. They’re just a fancy piece of stuff. I would love to be the person, be like, “Okay, this thing you did is great, but how is this going to help this package look better? What can we do to make this actually sell better on the store shelves or sell more product?” Stuff like that. I would love that kind of collaboration.
[0:54:19] DC: That is a great one and is much needed. I was at a printing event a couple of months ago, and the printing samples were so horrible. Because I guarantee you, a bunch of engineers printed them. And they were just really happy about it going as fast as it was supposed to go. And it was like nobody noticed. And I’m going to say nobody noticed because there were too many people to not – you know what I’m saying? It wasn’t a conspiracy. It was like because it’s not what they care about. But the people were yellow, literally yellow. And what happened to color correction?
[0:54:58] CB: I love going to print trade shows because I’m not always at those shows buying equipment anymore. But I learn so much when I go. And it’s so frustrating to see these multi-million dollar companies printing out Woody from Toy Story, and they’re cutting it on their die cutter, and they’re handing it out to people. I’m like, “Show this potential buyer of this press what an actual pouch would look like, or a carton, or a package, or a label, or whatever it is.” Have it done by a professional. You’ve got so much money, you could afford to hire somebody for a low wage and be able to put them on staff that could really design you some kick-ass pieces to help you sell more presses. So, that’s what you should be doing, not just printing out Woody and Buzz over and over and over all day long.
[0:55:47] DC: Yeah. I mean, it’s worse than that. In some cases, there’s just like a template, like a direct mail template. And then they just throw different images in it. And it’s like okay. But there is no human being on planet Earth that is that color. I don’t care what you say. Fix the freaking file. I don’t –
[0:56:06] CB: They don’t worry about that. They don’t worry about it being a real project. Everybody wants to sell a real project. Nobody wants to – you’re going to put this thing in my shop. You’re going to come in. You’re going to spend weeks there setting it up, weeks are getting the color correct. And then you’re going to say, “Okay. Now you go sell.” And they’re going to be like, “What can we do? Well, we can print Woody.” You want to be able to, “What are we going to use it for? We’re going to sell packaging. We’re going to go after this market. And because of this and this and this. And that’s why we’re doing it.” I’d love to be able to be an on-staff creative. Not even there, but I could do it from here. But just work with somebody to really help them elevate those sample things that they’re doing on these presses is because the capabilities are amazing.
[0:56:49] DC: I know.
[0:56:51] CB: But they’re not – they don’t see it.
[0:56:53] DC: I know. It is so upsetting. So I’m going to tell you something very interesting. I know this woman. Her name is Hadar. And her job was to try to break the Indigos. So she was the creative manager at Indigo. And when they had a new press, it was her job to push the limits of everything. If they said you could only have 80% ink coverage, she went to 100. If they said you can’t do orange, it was an orange thing. No matter what they – every limitation that was proposed or they thought, it was her job to figure out. It’s almost like the Indigo said, “Do your best.” And these were amazing things that they were producing. These were not – they ended up using them as samples at a print show and all of that. But that’s the job I always wanted. I think that that is the best job. Oh my god. They still have it there, but I don’t know who runs the studio anymore.
[0:58:00] CB: That’s fun. Yeah.
[0:58:01] DC: What is one project you’d love to redo if you could?
[0:58:06] CB: Love to redo. Probably more than one, looking back over a career. I think there were times. I can think of one time I did a catalog that was 300 pages. It was like parts for a company. So, it was a lot of tables, a lot of line items, a lot of numbers, minimal pictures, those kinds of things. And it was not – I inherited the file from somebody. So, it was not set up correctly and in design to flow data very well. And there’s that mindset of, “Oh, I don’t want to take 30 hours at the beginning and correct all this and start over. So, I’m just going to keep working and patch it as you go.” And when you get done, you realize you spent 50 hours. You probably should have did it the first time the right way, you know? So, I can point to that.
And we did that catalog. I did that three years in a row for a company, which I ultimately in the fourth year ended up letting them go because there were just challenges working with them. So, that’s one I would have redone. Things like that. You go back and realize it would have been quicker to do it at the beginning.
[0:59:12] DC: That’s a very good example. It’s a catalog that gives me print PTSD with freaking skew numbers for sunglasses. Think like 100 frames, and each frame had up to five different color lenses, but it wasn’t the same for all the frames.
[0:59:29] CB: Sure.
[0:59:30] DC: So, everything had to be proofread 3,000 times. It was absolutely a nightmare. I never want to do anything like that again. Okay, last question. What is the song that always gets you in the zone?
[0:59:45] CB: Gets me in the zone. Well, that would probably be a Kiss song, and that would probably be Shout It Out Loud would probably be the song.
[0:59:56] DC: Okay. All right, Craig, that was a good one. I just want to thank you so much for joining us here today, for sharing some insights that will be very helpful for printers and designers alike, for your time, energy, and creativity over the last at least 10, 11 years of designing the International Print Day poster and all of its glory. And of course, for joining me on this podcast today.
[1:00:25] CB: Well, you’re very welcome. And I appreciate you keeping me involved with the International Print Day poster and other things that you do. I love being part of your organization and the things that you’re doing to bridge the gap. And just keeping me involved in the printing industry in general. I’m all for anything that does that. So, I thank you. And I thank you for having me today.
[1:00:44] DC: Of course, you’re OG, Craig. You’re one of the OGs from the print chat days.
[1:00:49] CB: Awesome. Excellent.
[1:00:50] DC: So, we always stay with everybody like that. Okay, everybody. Everything you need to connect with Craig and learn about his company, Design That Rocks, and most important, buy some rub at Rub That Rocks, will be in the show notes. Until next time, print long and prosper.
Thanks for listening to Podcasts From the Printerverse. Please subscribe, click some stars, and leave us a review. Connect with us through printmediacentr.com, we’d love to hear your feedback on our shows and topics that are of interest for future broadcasts. Until next time, thanks for joining us. Print long and prosper.
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