[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:02] DD: Does your printing need some passion?
[0:00:04] NT: Your design, some dynamic dimension?
[0:00:07] DC: Are you stuck in a CMYK rut?
[0:00:11] DD: I’m David Drucker, Founder and CEO of highresolution printing and packaging.
[0:00:16] NT: I’m Noel Tocci, Founder of Tocci Made, Bespoke Print Consulting.
[0:00:20] DC: And I’m Deborah Corn, the Intergalactic Ambassador to the Printerverse. Welcome to Making It With Print, the podcast that takes a deep dive into the conception, creation, and production of amazing printed products.
[0:00:33] DD: If you can dream it –
[0:00:34] NT: You can make it.
[EPISODE]
[0:00:38] DC: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Podcasts From the Printerverse. This is Deborah Corn, your Intergalactic Ambassador. I am here with the Making It With Print Pod, which means I am here with Noel Tocci from Tocci Made and David Drucker from highresolution printing and packaging. Hello, gentlemen.
[0:00:57] DD: Hey, how are you doing? It’s been a little while for me, but I certainly missed you guys in our conversation, though.
[0:01:03] NT: Same here. How are you both? Nice to be back.
[0:01:05] DC: I wish I could say I miss Noel, but we’ve been talking every day, it seems now.
[0:01:10] NT: Yeah, it seems like it.
[0:01:10] DC: We’re on a roll. Yes, so we are here with Making With It Print Podcast. I am always thrilled to be with you, gentlemen. Today, we’re going to talk about how much finishing is too much. This really does fold under what I call the just because you can, doesn’t mean you should conversation. Too many effects layered together can create clutter, it can confuse the recipient. What is the important thing here? It could sometimes look gimmicky. The conversation today is at what point do finishing techniques start to work against the message, instead of enhancing it? David, let’s start with you.
[0:01:57] DD: Oh, so I’m going through that. This all right now on many different levels. But a client began to dictate to me papers that they want to use, different techniques they want to use. It wasn’t going to work, number one, because the papers that they wanted and how they wanted to use it was way too heavy. We had to rethink the type of paper that we’re going to use. Then, when you begin to add these different embellishments and you’re using, for instance, a heavyweight paper, or even a lightweight paper, let’s say we’re stamping on one, we’re embossing on another, all of those different treatments have different tolerances, as well as what I look at is what’s my timing on it? Do we have time to experiment? What’s your budget? Do you have time to begin to test these different stocks?
I think the real way to resolve using too many techniques is to bring your client in and let them know, I wouldn’t do this because of this reason, or I wouldn’t do it because of that reason. In those conversations, I found that it’s gone in a different direction and also in a better direction. It certainly has made a production easier for me. I know that different papers have different tolerances, different pigments have different reactions. It’s the full scope of that, and is it going to work, or is it not going to work, and what are your expectations in this? What are my expectations in this?
Eventually, if it becomes way too cluttered, I think that when people look at something and there are too many techniques being used, they’re going to say, “This is way too much going on, or this company is spending way too much money. This is an annual report, and it’s got every single technique going on in this annual report. What are they spending their money on?” Does it lose its artistry? Does it lose the point that they’re trying to get through? Is it too elaborate? Is it not elaborate enough? These are points where finishing and die cutting, and that’s what we’re talking about. An embellishment really can kill a piece, as well as it can enhance a piece.
[0:04:12] DC: It’s interesting that you came at it from a printer, David, as far as the papers and helping people, because that is all part of the message that a company, or a brand, is communicating. Of course, the substrates that they use. I think that you made a very relevant point that people do associate excessive finishing, if they’re in the industry, to them, it might be excessive finishing to regular civilians out there. It’s just confusing. They don’t know where to look.
If you think about a clear message is a spot varnish with no color, a clear spot varnish on a black background. There is a message, where a foil stamp on that would detract from the subtlety and the artistry of that. I think you made a very valid point that it could say, you’re a luxury brand, or it could say you’re punching above your weight, or it could say you’re desperate, you don’t know what you’re doing, so you’re just throwing everything at it. Noel, you don’t communicate a lot with finishing.
[0:05:18] NT: Yeah. I’ve been making a lot of notes here, and I love the way you did it and where you started and where you ended up, David. It was very astute of you, Deborah, to notice that. They’re both important. It’s ying-yang, right? Especially today, with the advent of all of this technology and the merging of old with new, it’s very easy to be sucked into what’s possible and cool, instead of what’s indicated, right? Wouldn’t that be cool? Then I have an arrow that points to, if you do – whatever you’re doing, does it enhance, or show your brand? Is it part of the brand essence? Is it designed? Does it make sense?
In other words, companies work very hard on a brand. We’ve talked about this. It’s great when you enhance things. But if it starts to confuse somebody and going, “Well, this is really cool. It shouldn’t look like an exhibition in what we do.” It should go, “Wow, I love that brand and oh, look at that little touch.” You’re still thinking about the brand. I think that’s really important. Is it indicated? Don’t do it if it’s just over the top.
The other thing is, because this is what I’m going to at, I’m going to make a really strange analogy, right? It’s almost like we’ve all seen the pictures of the parties in Ibiza and little young beautiful people with glitter on their faces. If this 60-year-old, quickly pudging old man shows up with glitter on his face, you go, “Aah.” I have that reaction when I see something and go, “Look, it’s embossed. It’s beveled. It’s served. It’s got a new polymer on there. I ran it through the wamajama sixta.” You go, “Well, that’s great. It belongs in maybe the Library of Congress, or an archive,” but you’ve lost – but it comes back to everybody has to talk to everybody. David said it, and you pointed to it as well, right?
The other thing is it’s very, and I don’t want to go into deep into the printer thing, but it’s true. David’s right. There is science. There’s chemistry between substrates and dimensional stability and moisture, and the whole nine. You can do things in a vacuum, and why make it overly complicated. Pick one or two things that you really think are going to grab someone’s attention. I’m very ADD. I can say this, but you don’t want someone to look at it and go, they’re jerking their head all around. That’s what it does, right? I mean, that’s great at a trade show. If you want to sell the machines that do this. But I’m sorry, I just can’t not be me. But David’s right.
I think, I heard him say something else and maybe he said it before we get on the call. You need to control. You want to get people excited about what’s possible. I think we have a duty to not let it go crazy, because number one, it’s going to make it harder for us to do it at the highest level. Number two, is it really worth the bang for the buck?
[0:08:03] DC: The customer’s not going to get the results that they want.
[0:08:06] NT: Yeah. Then it’s just you doing it to do it, and what’s the point?
[0:08:10] DC: Exactly. That’s why I say, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
[0:08:13] NT: And promise, I won’t put any glitter on my face next call.
[0:08:16] DC: Actually, I want to see you with glitter on your face doing the little dance you did on the video. That was hysterical.
[0:08:21] NT: We’re going to need a bourbon for that podcast.
[0:08:23] DC: Noel needs a reality show. If you happen to be a TV producer, Noel needs a reality show.
[0:08:27] NT: You guys are going to produce me. Anyway.
[0:08:30] DC: One of the things I think is so important about finishing is that the more minimal it is, the bigger impact it has. I will always go to that clear varnish on a solid color background.
[0:08:46] NT: Especially if it’s done correctly.
[0:08:48] DC: Exactly. It’s a crisp.
[0:08:49] NT: You know what I mean? They go, “Wow. I love the contrast.”
[0:08:52] DC: Exactly.
[0:08:53] DD: That’s exactly the point of why I started talking about finishing weeks ago when we were talking about what we’re going to do for our next podcast, is because this hot stamping, there’s varnishes, there’s tone on tone. There are many, many ways that we do it, but there’s really only one tasteful way of doing it. A client is going to come up to you and say, “I want this and I want that.” It’s really for us to say, “This is the way we need to put this together. I could guarantee that you’re going to love the outcome of what we’re doing.”
Client has to go based on trust and the knowledge that we have and the trials that we’ve been through. I mean, one of the things that you discussed with Amy Beth on the last podcast was about failures. Our failures are actually our learning tools. It gives us the opportunity to back up, to reevaluate. We’re sometimes doing it on client’s time, and sometimes we’re doing it on client’s budget. When you’re working with someone, you’re working with someone creative, and you’ve never done anything that way before, then you are experimenting as you’re going in.
The other thing is that some papers aren’t produced the same way that they were before. Now you’re working with a black paper and that black paper just isn’t doing – it doesn’t have the fiber that it has. It doesn’t fold the right way. It bellies out when you close the book. It opens back up again. There are so many factors that are in there. We have to go based on what our experiences have brought and evaluated, and share that with the client.
[0:10:36] NT: They’re variables. They’re variables you’re talking about. You have to be the parent in the room, right? You know what I mean? No cookies till after dinner. You know what I mean? Because if you go the other way, “Oh, yeah. Let’s try it. I have a stomachache.” You know what I mean? Because it’s going to come back to you. Well, why did you do this if you didn’t know what you were doing?
You’re right about all the variables. You can’t explain them, but you rather not deal with them if you don’t have to, right? After all these years, David, right, you probably go, “I love that paper, but I never saw it the exact same way twice. I do. I really want to do something that has to work on every sheet.”
[0:11:11] DD: Well, you know those times when something hasn’t worked and it’s the end of your day and you feel defeated and you walk away from it and you go home and all of a sudden, it comes to you, something that you did years and years ago. The dendrites in our brain, we begin to lose those connections as we get older, but all you got to remember is one thing in there that brings you back and begin to apply that. I mean, we’re lucky enough to be able to do that. But, I mean, I’m sure that’s happened to you, Noel, so many times, where you’re just frustrated and you want to put the brakes on, because you need the opportunity to evaluate.
[0:11:51] NT: You got to think and breathe and go back. The other thing is, you said something important, is you’ve got to be able to achieve it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with putting the brakes on, or thinking it through, and not letting it be difficult. I had another point, but I lost myself. Yeah, it’s not easy, and that’s okay. But you really have to have some self-control. When I see crazy new technology and everything, I go, “Okay.” But you take it in small bites, right, and you have to work your way through it. If you see something beautiful, these guys might have only been able to make one like that, you know what I mean? When you get in the reality of it, right? You know what I mean?
[0:12:32] DC: Yeah, definitely.
[0:12:34] NT: It’s like, “Wow, I can do UFC fighting. I could do that.” You get in the ring, and you’re in the hospital next week.
[0:12:40] DC: Totally. I think I can do curling. I can do the sweepy thing. Like, well, why can’t I do the sweepy thing? They don’t even wear skates. I just have to shuffle my feet along and sweep on the ice. I think I can do that. Something tells me I can. I’d be on my ass in two seconds on that ice.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:13:00] DD: Are you a frustrated creative and want a print partner that takes an artisan approach? Do you want to be inspired with techniques that will enhance your next printed or packaging production? Or are you a printer that has unique abilities and need a liaison to enhance your exposure? I’m David Drucker, owner of highresolution printing. I am an independent creative consultant with access to every printing technology out there.
I work hand in hand with creatives and printers, creating projects that are complex, and require meticulous detail, and precision, from concept to completion. Want to see what I mean? Go to guruofprinting.com and get inspired.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:13:45] DC: It’s interesting to hear you guys talk from that side of things, because I’ve been on the customer end of things, where the printer’s like, “Sure, we can do that.” They’re not the ones who used to wrangle us in at all, except a couple of trusted advisors are like, “You really don’t want to print solid black on the paper, because when you emboss it, you’ll see some of the white. You want to use a colored sheet.” It’s like, “Oh, thank you very much. You just saved us from a disaster.”
Or, to your point, that embellishment’s not going to work on this paper with this ink. There was a while there with inkjet that things just weren’t sticking to it. Now that has changed, and they also made paper that can hold on to the finishing. There’s the right amount of finishing, and then there’s the overkill of finishing. The most important part of it is making sure that the finishing that customers want to use is the right finishing for the purpose of the piece. What are they trying to communicate? Is it luxury? Whenever I walk into a liquor store, I don’t really drink. When I buy things for people, I know that I want to spend a certain amount of money on wine. Maybe I know if they like red, white, or whatever the other options are. Then what do I see first? All the sparkly labels. I mean, your eyes are drawn to it. Maybe that’s the only goal of the company. Or maybe the goal is to have people talk about it.
How do you match the right finish with the purpose of the piece? Most importantly, how do you communicate to that customers when they’re all set on one thing, but you know it’s going to change the message? Just as an example, I’m a natural food company and I want to put all these foil embellishments all over everything. Noel likes going second. Let’s start with David.
[0:15:45] NT: Feed off, David. I just thought.
[0:15:46] DC: Yeah. Noel is going second.
[0:15:48] DD: Yeah. I mean, you just said something about a food company using silver foil. I mean, I would never buy that food. I don’t know why. I don’t feel connected to that glitter that’s on there. Clients don’t know. You could have somebody who has been a designer for years and know the routes and what to do. Those conversations, that communication back and forth, will lead you into the right direction. The same thing is for novice buyers who want to begin to give every single bell and whistle that they can in a piece. I said it before, but I’m really firm on it now. We’re here to not only produce their work, but we’re here to educate them, and the education that we can give to them now is only going to help them in the future when they’re making other decisions.
If a client wants all the bells and whistles and they’re going to pay for it and it’s going to work, then I guess you do it. School for thought, what seeds have we planted for them for the future? How are they going to design in the future? I leave it up to, here’s one. I’m doing a production right now. It’s a great book. It’s the redo of a Hebrew Sadora of Saturday, Friday, Saturday night Hebrew prayer book. In 1892, the first prayer book was written Union Prayer Book, updated in 1945, updated 1972. Then the name was changed a little bit later than that to whatever the name is.
What we began to evaluate is that people under the age of 40 did not relate to those transliterations. This is a book that’s full of art, and it’s full of updated prayer and its meaning to prayer. The client told me what they wanted. They put me in a direction, and it’s like being an interior designer. I began to pull fabrics based on the color of the art that they were showing to me, techniques that we could use all in there. I really gave them a very narrow scope. To them, it might have been a lot of information. But I presented it in a way that this is the direction I’d like to go. Are you comfortable with this? Do you think that this translates to what you’re looking for?
What I did for myself is I really narrowed that field, so it wouldn’t go too crazy. We’re in production with it right now, and I’ll show you when we’re all done. It became our production. It didn’t become; I’m not just taking something from a client. I’m really evaluating and putting in my feelings to this as well. It’s very important to be able to communicate that. Right or wrong, I believe, we as printers have to communicate that. There’s got to be a feel of it. There’s got to be a tastefulness to it. It’s got to appeal to that audience where it’s going. It’s got to make everybody feel good. That’s the end result.
[0:19:09] DC: Yeah. It has to serve its purpose, which is to keep people connected to the synagogue that they belong to, without being so over the top that they don’t understand what’s going on. I mean, the purpose of the prayer book is for prayer, not to show off every printing technique. Yet, the text needs to be crisp, crisp text. There’s a lot of text in those books. I don’t know. Did you put a gold or a silver foil on the cover? Usually, they have –
[0:19:37] DD: No. I fade away from that.
[0:19:38] DC: – a white ink. Usually, they have that. Okay.
[0:19:40] DD: For one reason.
[0:19:41] DC: Very nice.
[0:19:42] DD: It goes into a slip case. All I did was quarter bind, quarter bind. Meaning, putting a fabric on the edge of the book coming out this way and the slip case going that way. It has that linen blue running along the edge. It’s a gift. It’s very, very tasteful. The way that the client is presenting these is he’s presenting them at first as gifts, instead of bringing a bottle of wine to somebody’s house. We’re going to put it into a beautiful canvas bag, and he’s going to begin to gift it and see where that goes. Well, that’s part of the whole story of the opportunity that I can help create in helping to create.
[0:20:26] DC: I think that is such a great example, because too much finishing on something like that changes how that would be received. Speaking as a Jew, I’m speaking as a Jew when I say that.
[0:20:37] DD: Oy.
[0:20:38] DC: Yeah, oy. Noel, speaking as an Italian.
[0:20:42] NT: Yeah, that’s it. You said something, a bunch of interesting things. What you’re discussing is really understanding what is appropriate, or makes sense. You said something about a buyer. I hate that. I’ve always worked in the design community. I know in a lot of different fields you’re in, you’re working with a buyer, but they’re just working with something they were given to. The further you can get up to chain, to the person whose idea it is, or whose brand it is, or who can make you understand what’s important, what’s critical about it, what’s not, and you won’t do any damage to something just – that’s why I don’t like when it’s a just to do this. You’re going to stamp here. You’re going to do this. You’re going to do that, what David just said. And they wanted him involved, and he should be. He thought about what it meant to him and the people he knew that he was doing it for.
“No. No foil, because we did this in the quarter binding.” Those kinds of things can only come from probably, people like us, but they’re driven by people telling you, right, “I don’t want it. I want to be in the middle. I don’t want to be able to top. I don’t want to. Shiny. I don’t want this.” I think the further you can get up the chain, and a lot of times, a lot of work has produced, that’s all been discussed without us. Then it’s on a purchase order. These are the specs. “Why would you do that?” I look and I go, “Well, why are you doing that?” “What do you mean why am I doing it? It’s what they said to do.” Well, then you got the wrong guy. The chances of you getting what you want, if you won’t think about what you’re doing are slim and none, right? That’s what you’re talking about.
I mean, you put yourself in it, and you had a lot to offer. Not just that you knew how to, yeah, you had to make it happen if you promised them, you do quarter binding, and all is going to change on the spine. The bottom line is you made those suggestions and everything you did, as far as production protocol was because of what it was, who was it before. In this case, you probably had a vested interest in that you were interested about it. I mean, you just rattled off the years, and that’s the best work, and you’re the best fit for something like that. You know what I mean?
Everybody comes together. People think that you just dream something up in a box, in a vacuum, and then hand it to you. “Well, you’re no good. You didn’t do what I wanted.” Maybe what they wanted, number one, couldn’t be done, wasn’t indicated, or you didn’t have enough information. I think I want people to understand that what David was able to do that because they let him in, and he thought about it, and it’s a partnership, right? They were willing to listen to your ideas, correct? You had their best interest at heart. You didn’t go, “Ah, forget them. I don’t care.” I don’t know. I know something, I didn’t say much, but I think it’s very, very important.
A lot of those, there’s little roadblocks along the way. I find sometimes, nothing wrong with buyers and people like that. Every step of the way in making something is none of it is phoned in, and none of it cannot change based on someone’s facial expression, or going, “Oh, no. I didn’t think that.” That’s how things get great, right?
[0:23:53] DC: I think that the problem is that finishing is not consistently thought of as contributing to an outcome, but contributing to an aesthetic. Once that happens, I believe you’re using it for the wrong reasons, which goes into just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Now, specifically with you, Noel, you do a lot of work for the paper companies. In that case, they really do want to show off as much finishing as possible, to let people know that it is possible with their products.
[0:24:28] NT: I push back a lot.
[0:24:29] DC: Okay, that’s what I wanted to ask you about.
[0:24:31] NT: As David said. I’m going to say it. It is a couple of years back. I said it to them then. I did paper with a plan, right? They’re all different substrates.
[0:24:38] DC: I love paper with a plan. That was my favorite one.
[0:24:39] NT: You know I did that, right?
[0:24:41] DC: No, I didn’t.
[0:24:42] NT: Look at the back.
[0:24:43] DC: I referenced it the other day. I said that Mohawk, there was a time where they were selling paper by how they wanted people to feel. I thought that that was a genius.
[0:24:53] NT: They hired me to do it. It was the $400,000 job without paper. It was five shops. It was 39 substrates. It was all kinds of processes. There were stuff in there and they said, “Well, anybody can do this.” Anybody can’t do this. You have one of the best design things. My brain’s exploding. We started to get into it. One specific piece, cotton one, right? We’re doing the cotton, and I just did it the other day. Foil on cotton, they don’t love each other. Cotton’s beautiful. Foil’s beautiful. But it’s hard to do it right. They insisted on doing it. We ended up double-hitting it and they was – I go, “What’s that on?” They go, “What’s that mire?” I go, “It’s bruising from the other side.” I said, “But that’s going to happen with cotton.” I said, “As long as you want to show that, I really can’t get rid of it. If I do, if you gave me this and I saw that and I went and did it and all of a sudden I couldn’t make it work, I’d throw the paper through your window.”
You have to make something beautiful, but it has to be doable. I said, you’ve almost made something that people go, “I love this,” and they put it on the shelf. I don’t do that. I just think, yeah, you didn’t know I did that. That was really, really – All those sheets that fold on each other?
[0:25:58] DC: Chris Harold is one of my favorite people.
[0:26:01] NT: He brought me in to do that. He said, “I know you can do this.”
[0:26:02] DC: Yeah. I called him my paper daddy. He was the man.
[0:26:06] NT: Yeah. The point is, you’re right. It has to be possible, and it has to be for the right reason. I get why paper companies do that, but you have to be very careful, because you’re asking people to buy your paper, or to – they might not have the same experience you do, because they don’t have all of the chops to get it done.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:26:27] NT: Hi, I’m Noel Tocci, founder of Tocci Made. The printing industry has changed quite a bit, and I’ve learned a lot since I joined my brother’s small but mighty printing company in Newark, New Jersey, back in 1980. Over the years, while focusing primarily in the design and creative communities, I’ve come to understand and believe wholeheartedly that powerful, effective, and impactful print communication always lives at the intersection of great design, appropriate materials, and thoughtfully curated execution. Making beautiful work is a journey from concept, or idea, to desired result. Tocci Made is here to help you find your way and create work that is not only effective but something you can be proud of. Head to toccimade.com and find out how we can help.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:27:13] DC: Die cutting has been around forever, but it always feels fresh when it’s used, I’ll say, well. I’m not going to say, appropriately. I’m going to say, well. What are some of the innovative ways you’ve seen die cutting used, especially beyond just trimming a shape? David, let’s start with you.
[0:27:35] DD: Well, I’m going to relate to a shape, okay? I know it’s beyond a shape, but many years ago in the city on 23rd and I think 2nd Avenue was going up, a new luxury tower. I had just begun to work with this particular design from. What they wanted was a 32-page book, but they wanted the cover to have a semi-circle edge, which means that the paper on the inside, the 32 pages also had to have that circle as well. That was a very, very difficult thing. Then they want to put it into a slip case, which also had that semi-circle as well.
I began to do a series of tests on there, and we began to move each page in by almost a 64th of an inch. When we were done, every single page was perfect in there, because, Noel, there’s creep on there that sent the pages that are pushing it out. You want this piece to look the right way to be what they wanted on top of that. We were using that rubbery stock called touche.
[0:28:47] NT: Oh, yeah.
[0:28:48] DD: It wouldn’t stand.
[0:28:49] DC: That’s my suede – That’s my nightmare story. Touche, we can swing tech.
[0:28:53] DD: Yeah. It wouldn’t stand. It wouldn’t accept any pigment that we put down. We wound up putting down a clear first, and then stamping on top of that, but I couldn’t get any white pigment to adhere. We went and took that and sent it to a screen printer, and just a little ‘O’ in the logo, we screened white. It works together. It’s so many different factors that are in there. I mean, that was a really tasteful way of producing it. It happens to be one of my favorites that we did produce. It is a shape, so I’m going against what you’re asking.
[0:29:30] DC: No. Because most people just think of it as just trimming a shape, not creating. What was the relationship between the semi-circle and the thing that was the semi-circle?
[0:29:42] DD: There’s nothing in the build of the premises that had a semi-circle. I mean, I was just thinking about that prior to. I’ve never been inside. Maybe some of the walls had a half curve on it, or they didn’t come. I can’t answer that question. I’ll be making it up as I go along, and you’ll be listening and shaking your head.
[0:30:02] DC: Well, that just goes, what is the right purpose for the piece? Maybe it was just to not be a square brochure.
[0:30:10] DD: Its design is beautiful.
[0:30:11] DC: Which, hello, goes a very long way in the world of square property brochures.
[0:30:17] DD: In a luxury piece, you are immediately, if that’s sitting on a table, you’re immediately attracted. What’s this?
[0:30:24] DC: Of course.
[0:30:25] DD: I got to have it. Can I keep this piece? Yes, you can. You’re going to pay a few million dollars for a place, which was back then. Yeah, keep the piece.
[0:30:34] DC: Yeah, you can have it. Noel?
[0:30:38] NT: I lately, and I really am in love with – I have a lot of grandchildren, but kids’ books, the three-dimensional stuff. It’s a combination of blue, cutting –
[0:30:47] DC: The pop-up books, you mean?
[0:30:48] NT: Yeah, they pop up, right?
[0:30:50] DC: It’s so cool.
[0:30:52] NT: I did a piece recently where you use something, I didn’t even know what it was. Kirigami. It just looks like an awards thing, like this. I had to follow instructions. We scored both sides, and we made a slit, and you can actually, one part goes this way, the other part goes this way. You get it and you just set it down. It’s very simple to make. Then the best example is one, people love it to this day. I had to do something for a very high-end furniture company. I’ve done a lot of work for them. They said, “We’re having an exhibition of –” These guys live in a full Johnson glass house. You get the idea. They were having all of this old, these famous designers’ stuff, so they had to have a booklet. They were having an exhibition, an open house. They had to have a booklet. They had to have a map of the whole thing. What else did they have to have? There was something else that, oh, and it had three kinds of information in it.
The designer came up with this, but I’m like, “What?” Took a poster and you open it all up. One side is the map of the whole layout. I die cut a slit in the middle, and then we scored it, so it folds down and comes together as a booklet, double pages, like French folded. It’s a booklet, it’s a slit in the top, and it’s so simple. A sheet that I die cut, a slit in the middle, but it’s the folding different ways and the thought in it. Sometimes the most simple things can be – and everybody to this day is like, “Can I get a sample of that? That’s amazing. The designer was brilliant.” I’m like, “Where do you –” Because there’s a lot you can do with folding.
A lot of times, if you slit things, I had another guy that had a thing, stuff bends this way, that way. If you print it the right way, there’s messages and everything. I’m fascinated by that. I can make it happen, but the design behind it, sometimes you don’t have to do that crazy die cuts and the pop – I mean, the pop-ups are obvious, right? They’re beautiful and they’re printed beautifully. But there’s things you can do with slight bits of die cutting and certain kinds of folds. The design has to fall in, like what’s panel-centric, and what is the reaction and the interaction. I think that’s just fascinating to me, when you can create these pieces that you watch them in someone’s hands, and it’s very simple. It’s just paper and novels, basically. Papers and scissors, and glued. It’s this whole other thing when you add the printing.
I just think when you push the envelope, it’s really, really good. What David said, there’s no reason for the shape. Probably, someone said, “I don’t know. I want a circle,” because they hadn’t seen one or something. But I don’t know.
[0:33:24] DC: Or actually, they did see one and they liked it.
[0:33:27] NT: Right.
[0:33:28] DC: They just wanted to do it, which is fine, to separate themselves.
[0:33:32] NT: Yeah, exactly. I just think that it can be a big aid when used, not in an obvious way, right? The obvious way is you’re making a shape, or you’re die-cutting the shape of a star. That’s what I wanted to point out. It can have hidden uses, right? Because you can make paper do and folding do things that it wouldn’t ordinarily do. Kirigami and origami is very close to that. If you think about it, right, you go, “How the hell do they make a swan out of this?” But now, think about printing that, and maybe it’s only take half of all those folds, you do something very, very interesting and unique.
[0:34:08] DC: That’s really cool. I like a nice die cut, unexpected fold-out from something. I like to just discover, “Oh, what’s this?” It folds out once, then it folds out again. But that last edge has something to it. It’s just, it’s an unexpected entertainment in the middle of whatever you might be looking at. Where is the line? Too much finishing is too much. You mentioned it before, David, about the complexity of it. As a customer, I’ve gone through this many times with that we did not pick the right substrate for the embossing that we needed. There was no way that paper was ever going to – We would tear through it every single time. Of course, “But we want to use this paper,” so it goes into 25 different dies, before finally the creative director is like, “Fine. We won’t use this paper.”
That leads to complexity in the production of the job, perhaps in creating the dies, or the layers for the embossing, or whatever the finishing, whatever it might be. It could lead to a lot of waste during testing. It certainly adds to the cost, which finishing does, specialty finishing does, but there’s a value to that. It’s not what it costs. It’s what it’s worth to you if you’re using it. But not if you’re doing tests. I mean, I can’t even tell you how much money we wasted on dies on that one job. It was, I mean, it’s disgusting, really. I mean, tens of thousands of dollars, and nobody cares at that point, because they think they’re going to win their award. David?
[0:35:57] DD: Yeah. Winning awards. As you begin to produce a piece and let’s say that it needs die cutting and needs embossing and your client really doesn’t know and you’re doing a beautiful multi-level emboss on the cover of a book and you’re using 130-pound brown paper, or whatever that is, and you’re doing the embossing and you’re lucky enough to have a budget to begin to test things. Then the client sees the heel on the backside, realizing that’s the inside of the booklet, and now they’re seeing the heel on the inside, and they say, “I don’t want to see that heel.” Now, what you have to do is you have to take another panel and fold it over and glue it down. Now you’re talking about more paper. It begins to just snowball into an expense. Then you begin to bastardize what you’re doing.
Well, maybe instead of having a piece that folds over, I’ll cut a piece to size and we’ll hand-glue it into place. You’re trying to reach for something that’s looking for trouble. I really feel that if you have the opportunity to test ahead of time. If I went back 10, 15 years ago, people really didn’t have the money to begin to test. I had to go off of what I’ve done in the past and see if that works, and ask a lot of questions and corral the suppliers that I’m using and ask them, and even the dye makers and the people making the embossing dye and getting everybody really involved in it.
In those conversations, you begin to get little bits of information from your suppliers that you can begin to feed back. That’s where I think we can maintain a cost. We can look at our waste that’s in there, and maybe we can simplify something without having to go overboard in everything. It’s all good. It’s great to have the intention and the glory of what this piece could be in the end. Let’s look at, all right, so we put it together, we delivered the books. They’re in the hands of the people who are receiving it, and then you open it up and begins to dog-ear. It doesn’t work the right way. It doesn’t last more than –
[0:38:28] DC: It cracks.
[0:38:30] DD: Right. just all that in there. It really doesn’t end when we pack it in a carton and deliver it. It has to live beyond that. How do we tell our clients? This is going to go a lot further than you just paying the bill in the end. We want this to be memorable. As my feeling with any printing, you want it to be memorable. You want people to be able in 10 years to call on that and say, “I remember when I did this and it worked. It isn’t what I intended to do, but it came out better than I thought.”
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:39:08] DC: Girls Who Print provides women in print and graphic communications with information resources, events, and mentorship to help them navigate their careers and the industry. As the largest independent network of women in print and a nonprofit organization, our global mission to provide resources, skill-building, education, and support for women to lead, inspire, and empower has never been stronger or more accessible. Through our member platform and program, as well as regional groups forming around the world, your access to Girls Who Print is just a click away. Gentlemen, you are most welcome to join us as allies. Get involved and get empowered today. Link in the show notes.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:39:55] DC: Noel, where is the line?
[0:39:59] NT: I think you need to weigh feasibility against potential value. You said something else very important. You have to look, how is it going to live in the space, or age, or not work? Simple can be very, very powerful. It’s not sexy to a lot of people, but if you choose one thing you know that’s going to work, and it highlights, or shows your brand message, or what you’re trying to get across and it is a little bit different and it’s very beautiful, everybody wants to just go over the top and you’re right, David. It may be very difficult to do that, right? Because now you’re weighing all of these different processes interacting with each other. Then, is it going to have shelf life? Is it really going to give you – what’s the payback?
I mean, and really, the payback you want is for it to have – to not change people’s appreciation, or understanding of your brand, but to work with it and to enhance it. I think it’s very easy to go, “We can do this. We can do that.” I think simple can be very, very powerful, particularly when people recognize that it’s very beautiful and there is something special there. Maybe some kind of a die cut that’s unforeseen, or you just said yourself, Deborah, you like when there’s a little surprise of a – you don’t have to go overboard, I think. If you’ve got a customer who cares about you, if they’re just looking for all pomp and circumstance, maybe they’re not for your brand anyway. But they’re probably going to invest the time to really think about what you’ve done and maybe find a surprise, or go, “Look what they did there. Look at that.” I think that’s way more powerful. Is it sexy? Is it going to end up in a museum? Probably not, but that’s not the point, right? I think you’d almost have to walk people down.
For guys, people like David and I, it’s always, you don’t want it to seem like, “Oh, we’re afraid to do it.” No, I’m not afraid of anything. But does it make sense to go in circles, go crazy and reinvent the atom? What was the payback? You know what I mean? What’s the opportunity cost of the money you spent on that? Maybe do another piece that goes with it, or something?
[0:42:13] DC: I mean, I could walk in and buy a Lamborghini. Not really. I can’t afford it. But am I qualified to drive it? No.
[0:42:20] NT: Well, that’s the point.
[0:42:21] DC: I can’t handle that horsepower. I don’t know how to do it. It’s interesting that you mentioned a museum, because that’s actually the example I usually give. Who’s the artist that does the circle? Is it Rothko? Is he the one who did just the red circle? Do you know what I’m talking about?
[0:42:36] NT: Oh, I don’t know exactly who it is. I know the red circle.
[0:42:39] DC: There’s an artist, and the art that is hanging in the museum is literally a red circle. It could be next to a Rembrandt. Which one are you drawn to? I will tell you, I’m drawn to the red circle, because I’m like, “What is going on here? Why is it just a red circle? How is it in a museum? It’s a red circle.” Then, to you, go, well, if you’re talking about it, it’s art. Otherwise, it is just a red circle, right?
If you think about finishing like that and how it will enhance, or detract from the message of not just the written message, but the message that you want people to perceive of the piece of you, of your company, of your brand, whatever it might be, then there is a reason to collaborate with people like Noel and David, and your printers and be weary of anyone who’s like, “We can do that.” It’s fantastic if they can do it. But then, again, somebody has to be the adult in the room, as Noel said. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Please, go ahead.
[0:43:55] DD: That’s why I love haptic so much, right? I didn’t understand them at first. Well, I know you guys know, and most people do, but it’s the brain science behind how you interact with texture and color. You don’t even know what’s going on. Your brain, you get something heavy. Oh, that’s authentic. Things are going on that you don’t even understand. I think sometimes you can do that, without the obvious flash.
[0:44:17] DC: Definitely.
[0:44:18] DD: Without the car rack and stuff. What’s that? You get it –
[0:44:22] DC: Think about soft touch aqueous. That had that moment. It came through your mailbox and you were like, “What is this?”
[0:44:29] DD: You know I’ve done a good job. I give someone a book. It’s really special, and I killed myself, and they don’t know anything about anything. They get it in their hands and they say like, “Oh.” They don’t even know why they like. This just feels different than a regular book. That’s really what you’re going for.
[0:44:46] DC: Right.
[0:44:46] DD: I’m thinking, the applause and everybody’s standing around. I think it’s being, again, just being awake and recognizing how people react to things. If those are the people you want, then make more of that.
[0:44:59] DC: Yeah. Thank you, gentlemen, for an enlightening conversation. You can connect with David and Noel through the links in the show notes. You can also hear this podcast playing on printfmradio.com, the new radio station from Print Media Centr. People love the Making It With Print Podcast playing on the station. I’ve heard from several people who tell me, “I was just listening to the two guys. I can’t tell them apart.” I’m like, “Welcome to Making It With Print. Sometimes I can’t either when I’m listening back.” Thank you, gentlemen, for your time. Thanks to everybody who listened. Until next time, finish appropriately and prosper.
[END OF EPISODE]
[0:45:40] DC: Thanks for listening to Podcasts From the Printerverse. Please subscribe, click some stars, and leave us a review. Connect with us through printmediacentr.com, we’d love to hear your feedback on our shows and topics that are of interest for future broadcasts. Until next time, thanks for joining us. Print long and prosper.
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