[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:02] DD: Does your printing need some passion?
[0:00:04] NT: Your design some dynamic dimension?
[0:00:07] DC: Are you stuck in a CMYK rut?
[0:00:11] DD: I’m David Drucker, Founder and CEO of highresolution printing and packaging.
[0:00:15] NT: I’m Noel Tocci, founder of Tocci Made, bespoke print consulting.
[0:00:20] DC: And I’m Deborah Corn, the Intergalactic Ambassador to the Printerverse. Welcome to Making It With Print, the podcast that takes a deep dive into the conception, creation, and production of amazing printed products.
[0:00:33] NT: If you can dream it.
[0:00:34] DD: You can make it.
[EPISODE]
[0:00:39] DC: Hey everybody, welcome to Podcasts From the Printerverse. This is Deborah Corn, your Intergalactic Ambassador, and today we are here with Making It With Print, which means we have David Drucker from highresolution printing and packaging. Hello, David Drucker.
[0:00:53] DD: How are you doing? Good to be back here.
[0:00:56] DC: Good to be back and seeing you as well. And we have Noel Tocci from Tocci Made. Hello, sir. How are you today?
[0:01:05] NT: Well, how are you two? Nice to see you again.
[0:01:07] DC: Nice to see you guys. I am really excited for our topic tonight, which is building a brand through print. And this topic came to me because I was speaking with somebody who changed a company logo. I was like, “That’s interesting.” I was like, “I didn’t realize who you could do that.” So, that got me interested in the branding process and how you establish it and of course how print could fit in.
So, David, this is very topical for you. So, I will start with you. From your perspective. What role does print play in establishing and reinforcing a brand’s identity?
[0:01:57] DD: Yes. So, this is exactly where I live and where I’m living right now with several different clients. I made a list of the things that I talk about in my meetings, and I’m really just going to read from the list because it’s my standard. The first being tangibility and permanence, like in printed materials, like business cards, packaging, brochures, and signage. It’s a physical form of that brand and it lingers in offices and homes and hands and it’s something that is kept. It’s ongoing.
The comparison is, I’m in a networking meeting and somebody wants to touch my phone and grab my information. Well, what branding is that other than having that information now in your phone and how do you recall that? What are the sensory that come to mind. The second is a perception of quality and that we do through high-quality printing, paper choices, finishes, like embellishment, foil stamping, and it shows craftsmanship and it’s an attention to detail that everybody focus on and that’s perceived as value of that brand.
So, I can change just the paper and it’ll enrich response. That’s something that we offer. Consistency, consistent use of colors, typography, and design, they help solidify its visual identity. This repetition builds familiarity over the course of time. Then there’s the emotional connection. Emotional connection being tactile experience of print, texture, weight, even the smell of ink. Something that we look for as well. How many times have you gone into a place and handed in the card and right away, their nose is against it. That’s part of it. That’s part of the haptic experience. Well-executed printed materials feel more personal and intentional.
Lastly, credibility and trust. In the age of digital noise, which is what I just talked about as far as networking and touching your phone and such, pre-communication professionalism and shows authenticity. People often associate printed materials with legitimacy and authority, especially when it comes to finance, health care, and luxury goods. There are some other, I’m dealing right now with fashion and changing her entire branding. This particular person had branding her materials in their shopping bags and a load of other materials that she was producing overseas. She was told one thing, she got a different thing, nothing matches across the board. So, really the focus is how do you keep things consistent? When somebody picks up one of your printed pieces or looks at your signage, are they immediately going to know who you are sometimes without even reading it? Just from a glance, to be able to see that.
Print reinforces a brand and it makes is makes it real and makes it reliable. It complements digital efforts, so if you’re going to do a website or you’re going to do social media, make sure that everything looks consistent in there and that’s how you get your brand message. Once it’s all broken apart and you’re bringing in different vendors and nobody’s on the same page, it looks like mishmash. So, that’s what I put together. I’m sure as Noel gets into this, he’s going to bring up more idea, which is what I’m hoping, and I’m going to take notes.
[0:06:06] DC: So, I want to echo a few things you said before we get to Noel. First of all, I was cracking up because the NFC tapping or the RFID, however it works, is actually branding for Apple and Android because they’re the ones who enable it. So, when you see somebody tapping, if you want to do that, then you might be drawn to those phones. It’s interesting that you mentioned that.
I love that you said quality feels personal and it took me back a second, but now that I’ve absorbed it, I love it, and I’m officially telling you, I’m stealing that from you. I think it’s genius.
[0:06:42] DD: You’re welcome to do it. Thank you.
[0:06:43] DC: The legitimacy part, I think I’ve told you the story before about the New York Times did an interview with someone who had just bought a dispensary, marijuana dispensary in New York City. It was one of the early people, adapters of it. And they went to interview them about the process to get the license and all that other stuff. What happened was that the dispensary owner gave the journalist a ridiculously expensive business card. It was like embossed. It was foiled. It was thick. I mean, it was every special effect and high-end thing you could think was on this card. The article turned to the card because the journalist asked the dispensary guy, why did he spend so much money on the cards? And I think he said they were like $5 a piece or something crazy.
The gentleman responded that this business card transforms him from a drug dealer to a businessman. Legitimacy. So, I always use that example because I think it’s the perfect example.
[0:07:51] NT: Great reference.
[0:07:52] DC: So, Noel, from your perspective, what role does print play in establishing and reinforcing a brand’s identity? I’m really interested in your answer too, especially since you work with so many of the companies that we all know.
[0:08:07] NT: Yes, well, and I like that I went second because David nailed it and he said it differently, maybe than I would, but it made me think, “Okay, so let me extend what he said.” So, right away, I was going to say, and we all say it differently. Haptics, right? Because you said what role does print play? I’m going to talk about the whole brand, but print to me is about haptics, right? It’s about feel, it’s about texture, it’s about color.
But I’m going to go to my last point because I started thinking about what he said. If you’re going to rebrand, and I see so many rebrands and get involved in them with these rebranded big agencies, and I think you really have to take the 30,000-foot view, right? Because it’s not just print. An ink on paper is going to do a specific thing, and David nailed it. It is haptics. It is the texture, the color, right? Is it authentic? These choices you make, are they authentic to the message of your brand or your company, of what you espouse and what you’re trying to do? And it can be a small tweak. Someone can go, “Well, that’s shiny. I’m not shiny. We’re not shiny.”
But the 30,000 view, because remember, there’s a print, print is what we just talked about is haptics, but the visual flavor, right? Because remember, you’ve got social, you’ve got – does all the social and the visual and the media and the backlit screens, does it match your physical assets, which are your packaging, your business cards, your letter ad, all of those things, they can be very different and they are. They’re never going to match, but that they all feel and I thought of what I call the Sesame Street analogy, right? Which one of these things is not like the other, right? They all kind of have to – and a kid could tell you better. They go, “That doesn’t belong,” and you just spent $300,000 hiring a branding agent. They go, “That’s stupid.” Maybe that’s what we have to do, right?
The other thing is, yes, I talked about color and texture, but you need to be able to transfer that. Now, I’ve done a fair amount of work for companies that are rebranding, and I find it really fascinating because they come up with this, and I’m talking huge brands, they come up with this huge new brand for a company, and their big fear is they’re going to get paid and they’re going to move on. The company’s going to take that brand and those brand standards and that brand book, and if they’re big, they’re going to print anything from packaging in Asia to letterhead in New York to this. How do they – and the branding agencies always tell me, and I’ve done it about 10 times, they go, “Noel, could you do me a favor? We came up with a color palette. Forget about the logo. It’s just basics, but there’s a color palette.” I’ve done it about 10 times. I print a 25×38 sheet with every one of the colors that they’re recommending in the palette. And then we do them in different tint values, every possible thing on about four different substrates. And they give that as part – the good branding agencies give that to them and go, “When you go to print, you’re not telling them, just give them a guide. There’s color bars they can read.”
So, that’s smart too. You can come up with the most perfect brand and do all the things that David talked about, but it could get executed over a number of years all over the world and the print part of it could sadly not stay together. I’m going to let you ask the second part of your question because I could go right into it, but I won’t, about the brands that do it right. Sometimes you got to keep it simple, stupid, right? I’ve seen some people, they rebrand, it’s beautiful, but I don’t know how they’re going to make that brand work in media and on screens and in print and still feel like it all belongs together.
I hope this is an extension of kind of what David said because he’s dead on and it’s a lot harder than it looks. Sometimes some of the best, and we’ll get into it in a minute, some of the best brands are so basic, right? That’s it. They don’t try to do too much. You could see it from eight miles away. People say it’s too simple, but you dial one is recognition.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:12:11] NT: Hi, I’m Noel Tocci, founder of Tocci Made. The printing industry has changed quite a bit, and I’ve learned a lot since I joined my brother’s small but mighty printing company in Newark, New Jersey, back in 1980. Over the years, while focusing primarily in the design and creative communities, I’ve come to understand and believe wholeheartedly that powerful, effective, and impactful print communication always lives at the intersection of great design, appropriate materials, and thoughtfully curated execution. Making beautiful work is a journey from concept, or idea, to desired result. Tocci Made is here to help you find your way and create work that is not only effective but something you can be proud of. Head to toccimade.com and find out how we can help.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:12:58] DC: To David’s point, there’s a website called Logos of the World, and every once in a while, they put out some quiz, and they just show one thing, and they tell everybody to guess what logo is. You pretty much know what every single one of them is. Even if it’s something different, they use the color palette. So, it’s very interesting about that.
I want to stay here for one second and dive in a little deeper, because not all brands are haptic brands. I mean, you know what I’m saying? So, there are some that, for example, I did work on Ritz-Carlton residences in the hotels and the yachts. My God, I mean, sometimes you work on these accounts and you just like want to kill yourself. Like why aren’t I on this yacht? Which you rent, by the way. We actually helped them with their brand guidelines for that. So, everything had to be on silk paper with the soft touch acquiesce on it. Didn’t matter what we were doing.
So, everything we did that anyone was going to touch to your point had to feel luxurious. But color doesn’t translate everywhere in the world, which I also learned the hard way. So, what are the considerations for printing in other countries when you can’t really tell them – I mean, you could break down the color, you could send them the breakdowns.
[0:14:23] NT: Well, that’s why they press proofs, right? They have color bars. I mean, you say all over the world, everybody has the same process. It’s the same. You can profile it. You could do a press proof. You can give them profiles and everything else and they should come really close and they have something to go for, but you’re right. There are some things you can do and one of them is what I mentioned and it does work pretty well. I mean, I put it in Asia and I do a press proof here and I send them sheets. I go, “This is your target.” They get pretty darn close.
[0:14:51] DC: Yes, I actually did that once I sent these things called match prints that we used to have to Spain and they printed my red, orange because we spec the PMS color that doesn’t exist there. So, I’m just bringing it up because we’ve mentioned brand guidelines, which they’re not really guidelines. They’re standards, right? This is the way, if you’re going to work for us, this is the way it is. So, when you are writing those, it might be a good thing now to say, if you’re printing on digital, it’s this. If you’re using offset, this is the PMS color, but to your most excellent point, if you’re printing it, test it, test it, test it, test it, test it, also on every paper and substrate that you recommend that they’re using, whether it’s a plastic thing for a shelf, talker, or whatever they call those things, or a display.
I worked on the Coca-Cola International account and I appreciate that some brands don’t care about all the colors matching, but I can tell you that Coca-Cola does. So, the red on the can or the bottle or the label and the display and the little thing that is hanging that says, “Buy two, get one free,” or whatever it is. If it has a picture of a Coke logo or a Coke bottle on it, all those reds have to look the same. So, you kind of cheat a little with photoshoots and things like that.
But I just wanted to bring that up that it’s bigger than just, “These are the brand colors. This is the brand people now.”
[0:16:22] NT: But whoever designs that branding needs to consider the assets that are going to be used. I’ve seen people create a logo and a brand and a vacuum. Isn’t it gorgeous? But they didn’t think about these people who have to package a little bag or something.
[0:16:36] DC: What if it’s on a shirt?
[0:16:37] NT: It might be done off. You could create a nightmare bearing your simplicity. So, you have to think down, that’s what I mean by the 30,000-foot view.
[0:16:45] DC: Yes. I mean, even embroidery, can this logo be embroidered? Or are some of the letters too small?
[0:16:52] NT: Very smart.
[0:16:52] DC: It will never work. If you’ve made a custom color, can I get thread that color? Otherwise, what are my alternates? So, we’re talking about print and how it enforces a brand’s identity. To your excellent points, both of you, first and foremost, it has to work and it has to look good.
[0:17:09] NT: Can I interject something really fast? I’m doing something right now and it’s a brand, everybody would know, but they’re changing it and they picked a green. Green’s big this year. I got about four things going on that are green. So, they want to use green. We don’t want white edges. We want to use green paper, but it’s not the right green. Don’t even go where you’re going. We’re going to print CMYK over the green to make it the correct green, which is a whole thing in its own thing, but you’re not going to repeat that any more. There might not be able to do it.
[0:17:36] DC: Hang on. They’re printing green ink on green paper?
[0:17:39] NT: No, we’re going to print CMYK in green on the green paper. So, we’re going to make it like dark. It’ll mow, in other words, we’re shifting the green to make it the right –
[0:17:49] DC: I’m sorry, I’m a production person. I have a question about that. Why wouldn’t you just print the green on white paper?
[0:17:55] NT: Because you’ll have white edges and you could edge paint them.
[0:17:58] DC: Oh, okay. I get it. They want the edges.
[0:18:01] NT: It is a lot of different things and we’re going to use it for everything. We’re going to do a $2,000 press proof with, guess what, about 20 different builds until we get the right green and then the inside will be – they’ve overthought it right and it’s a luxury brand, but that doesn’t mean you have to complicate it. Correct? Yes, tell me about it. I’m like, I think I want to hang up, but I’m interested. But my point is, yes, yes, whatever. That was the point I wanted to make.
[0:18:32] DC: Okay, but that’s a really good one. I’ve never heard of printing green on top of green paper to make it a difference.
[0:18:37] NT: I’ve done that in the past.
[0:18:39] DC: Okay, I’m fascinated by this. David?
[0:18:41] DD: No, no, you and I live off of challenges and it’s very hard.
[0:18:46] NT: No kidding.
[0:18:47] DD: You build to certain point and you’ve done that challenge and you nailed it. As far as being a vendor is concerned, once you nail a color, I mean, you nail a color, they’re going to come back to you over and over again. He nailed the color, we’re going to deal with them. Why go elsewhere? It’s a way to secure your future business. But as far as what you just said, I totally agree with that. I’m in the middle of this as well as you are with these rebranding.
That is quite the thing to print over a colored paper. You have expensive colored paper, which is expensive to begin with, and then you –
[0:19:29] NT: Well, that’s the problem.
[0:19:30] DD: Yes, it’s about 3.50 a sheet or $4 the sheet. So, you’re going to do a $2,000 press proof, basically, because I know what’s going to go into it. But I’m going to do a boatload of it. So, that’s going to be part of the business card. It’s going to be a folder, but it’s going to be part of the business card. It’s like one half that’s going to mount together. They use it for a lot of things. It’s not like a brand that’s going to be – it’s luxury real estate, basically. So, you’re going to have so much of it. Next year, they might reprint it and we’ll make enough so they have it. It’s not like it’s some brand that’s going to get printed all over the world. It’s going to have to be, like you said, this way right here.
Well, that’s what I was saying about the challenge of doing that and nailing it. You and I have gone through these stages, and we’ve already done years ago what vendors are trying to do and accomplish now. So, we do look for that challenge. It’s a curse almost to say, “No, I’m not going to do it because there is a challenge in that.” There’s money in it too, but there is the challenge of how to achieve it? Write the book. You’re writing the book.
[0:20:38] DC: I’ve never heard of printing color on a colored paper, so I’m just fascinated by this and I cannot wait to see what it what it looks like. Okay, what is a brand that does it right? David Drucker?
[0:20:53] DD: Tiffany. Tiffany, you can from afar, you can see their bags, you can see their boxes, the back end of one of their business cards, you can drive down Fifth Avenue, you can just turn to the left. You don’t even have to read it. It is their color. It’s that Robin egg blue, a little bit darker –
[0:21:15] DC: It’s Tiffany blue. It’s actually, it’s a blue color.
[0:21:20] DD: That comes out.
[0:21:22] DC: And they’re the only ones who can have it.
[0:21:23] DD: I was going to say something that you referenced before, which was Coca-Cola, because you know that red, you know that swish that they have, you can see it from a distance. You know their trucks driving in the city to make their deliveries. And it doesn’t even have to say Coca-Cola. It could just be the red with the swish and you know what it is.
[0:21:42] DC: It’s called the dragon tail, just so you know the official.
[0:21:48] DD: Oh, thank you. That’s a good turn.
[0:21:48] DC: Noel, what brand gets it right?
[0:21:52] NT: So, I’m going to one just as basic and simple, this just as almost as everywhere as Tiffany’s and I’m quite involved with them, and you’d think it would be simple, but it’s not. Tommy, red, white, and blue. Tommy Hilfiger. But it doesn’t have to be. I did a project directly for Tommy himself and it was – it had braille on it, so we had to do a certain substrate and we had to do a digital press. Now, we got to get those, because when those colors are so, they’re red and they’re blue, anyone can walk down the street and go, if the red and the blue and Tommy’s wrong, you see it’s wrong. Correct?
But now you’re talking about if you do different things now I have to put a laminate on and I have to do it on a digital press so I can do and extend a gamut. But if I can’t hit those basic colors, you know what I mean? So, it’s so simple that it’s difficult to do a lot of different ways. But it’s like Tiffany and I’ve done Tiffany’s lookbooks. I have them over there, but it’s the same thing. It’s so the same everywhere, that’s not always easy to do. I mean, it’s brilliant because you don’t, like David said, everywhere you look up, don’t you think Tommy’s, I mean, you see it, you know, you see red, white, and blue in a kind of a flat. You know instantly. And I’ve done packaging in Asia for them. I’ve done it here. I’ve done it on an offset. I’ve done it digitally. I know David’s done probably a fair amount of work for them as well, but it’s instantly recognizable and it should be very basic, but it’s not always basic.
But that’s the one that comes to mind for me. I actually like the others I like. I’m really getting in a lot of them. I started to do some crazy labels. I don’t know why. Some of these wine bottles and stuff, and I’m not a wine drinker, but I stand in the store and I’m like, “You’re doing some really crazy stuff.” They’re very beautiful and it’s part of their brand, right? I mean, the paper, the foil. It used to be, you didn’t really care. Well, that’s my brand, how much is it? So, I don’t know. But I hope that answers your question. But I mean, I think they’re not that different than each other. Tiffany, and they do it right because it’s just not complicated.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:23:57] DC: Are you looking to elevate your game, take your bottom-line customer relationships, and events to the next level? Then, I want to work with you. I’m Deborah Corn, the Intergalactic Ambassador to the Printerverse. I engage with a vast, global audience of print and marketing professionals across all stages of their careers. They are seeking topical information and resources, new ways to serve their customers and connect with them, optimize processes for their communications and operations, and they need the products and services and partnership you offer to get to their next level.
Print Media Centr offers an array of unique opportunities that amplify your message and support your mission across the Printerverse. Let’s work together, bring the right people together, and move the industry forward together. Link in the show notes. Engage long and prosper.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:24:58] DC: Yes, definitely. That branding also goes to causes that companies champion that you can count on. I think of absolute when I think of that, especially since it’s Pride Month, although it’s a little sad this year, there’s a lot less corporate support for Pride because everyone’s nervous about it. So, I honestly think Whole Foods does a great job too. How everything is a craft paper-looking. It gives you a feeling of a natural. Craft paper, you just kind of feel natural about it, those light browns and greens and just feels wholesome, I guess. And you can also, you know it when you see it is what I’m saying, but I think they do a good job all around.
[0:25:46] NT: You see some of them trying to change. I almost don’t want to mention the one, but I did a brand book or a brand, the biggest brands ever, everywhere on the planet, Ketchup, right? It starts with an H and I don’t eat ketchup. I think it’s the nastiest stuff on the planet, right? I’m just not a ketchup guy, right? But I got to tell you, they tried to rebrand it into like the healthiest company on the planet, paper, all kinds of, and I’m thinking, “That’s not ketchup. It was gorgeous.” Find the embosses of the logo, and I started laughing. I’m like, “This is not that brand. I mean, I see what you’re doing,” but it’s like you’re doing it to get people to either change the way they think about you, or, “Hey, we’re cool. We hug trees.” Yes, I don’t know. Sometimes I think people overthink things, and I probably said –
[0:26:30] DC: I agree. I don’t need my ketchup to be sustainable.
[0:26:33] NT: Well, they think you’re selling more, right? Well, ketchup’s one of those things. You either love it or you hate it.
[0:26:39] DC: Exactly, like Duke’s Mayonnaise or Hellmann’s. Hellmann’s, by the way, is the answer to that question. Okay, how early in the branding process should print be considered and who needs to be at that table?
[0:26:54] DD: You should be calling your printer in right at the beginning. And this is the reason, I know that we’ve talked about this a thousand times on here. But I’m working with a really high-end chocolate chef, and they’re going to start putting their chocolates out. They definitely have been working with the designer on the color of the box itself. There are all different colored browns. Some browns have some more red in it. Some browns have some more yellow in it. But there’s one aspect of this, which is where they’re taking a chocolate bar and they’re wrapping it in a brown paper.
So, what I did is I looked at the brown that would be the easiest for me in their PMS swatches that they had pulled out. I said, “This is the brown that I think we should go for.” But once they introduce that other part, which is this wrapper, now I have to use a brown paper. So, is that brown paper going to match that brown PMS? I know all the other colors that they picked up, none of them are going to match any paper that’s out there right now.
That changed the direction as well. What brown paper are we going to use? And now we’re going back and we’re going to adapt that not only to the wrapper, but to also the outside of the box, the wrap of the box itself. See how that changed? They would have gone down a direction and they would have finalized everything and then they would have called a printer in and none of this would have matched. They would have had to compromise.
So, in this very, very beginning stage, we’ve all said it. You don’t know what you don’t know. And therefore, we’re adding the guidance, Noel, that 30,000-foot view of what that outcome is going to be. Without that, you’re kind of shooting in the dark unless the designer knows everything that’s out there and able to coordinate everything.
[0:28:48] DC: I have a question about this chocolate bar. Food safety. So, is there a liner on that paper? Is it food safe paper? Is there wax on it? Where are you picking paper from that’s not approved to have food wrapped around it in it?
[0:29:04] DD: All of the chocolate is protected. So, no matter what I use, box material, the paper wrapper, nothing ever touches food. So, I mean, that’s one of the prerequisites I had before I even walked in there. How are you protecting your food? Because when we get into the FDA, it’s going to shoot every idea down as to what our abilities are –
[0:29:34] DC: That’s what I was specifically I was asking you. I didn’t want anyone to go out there and think they could use any type of paper for a candy.
[0:29:40] DD: No, but also looking that they’re going to be doing some private label boxes. So, there might be a hundred boxes here, 80 boxes here, 500 boxes there. You’re not going to do that using the right equipment to be able to produce that. I mean, that’s extremely limiting. I’ve lived that before. We build prototypes, everything was accepted. And the last question was, if we continue to go down this road, is it going to be food safe? I couldn’t guarantee it. Therefore, Kraft used their people to build it.
[0:30:17] DC: Yes, because you have to start with it that way on those types of projects. Noel, how early in the branding process should print be considered and who needs to be at the table?
[0:30:29] NT: Yesterday, because a concept, which you see many times with new brands, is just that. It’s a concept. There’s no way to prove that those colors and what that color scheme is going to be able to be executed to do what the concept is meant to do. David alluded to it. We don’t know, there are so many kinds of inks and so many kinds of substrates and they all have their special relationship with each other. And that may not be what they look like on that slick backlit screen or those beautiful lasers that they decided this is our brand, especially if you have an organic brand, because once in a while we say bad words, a lot of those substrates perform like shit. That’s okay. Maybe that’s part of the brand, not the S word, but that it should look down and dirty.
But you have to think about it immediately, especially if you have a product that’s going to be, that’s a tangible product, not a service that is wrapped or has paper or has – you know what I mean? It might have multiple substrates and so how do they work together? Until you do, I’m doing one right now for I don’t even exactly know. I know but I don’t know. A super, super high-end brand that they’re coming up with. I just thought of this now. I had a call an hour ago and I almost didn’t mention it. It’s all around, high fashion. It’s about the dress. I go, “Well, let me see the dress.” You know they said? It’s in a museum in Paris. I go, “Oh, this is stupid.” “We want a color palette.” So, okay, they gave me a box, a high-end, like $1,000 box, veneer. This is what it feels like.
I’m doing 18 different drawdowns on different substrates to get the color. I said, some designer in Paris go, “That’s it.” But now you’re going to, I said, “You’re going to kill yourself trying to get there with other stuff,” but they have to start somewhere. And they’re making me nuts, but they’re actually right. They’re going to go, this is it. This is what it feels like. Now, this box has, it’s like a maroon, but it has nine levels of lacquer on it. And you’re trying to explain it, and go, “Yes, but if you go to print something, offset inks to translucent, other inks sit up top, but it’s going to do this.”
So, it’s a more of a feel. But they’re right, because they really want what they want. And a lot of people don’t consider it at all. And they actually go into production and they got to get the product up there and they go, “What is this? That’s not what we look.” Like David said, all the due diligence and there’s a lot of it if you’re going to print substrates and inks in process. Those are variables. Every one of us exponentially can change the other variable. And if you change two and you don’t think about the third one, I almost said another bad word. You’re going to have a bad day.
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[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:34:14] DC: Yes. Before the woo-woo people absconded vision boards, in advertising agencies, you used to, when there was a new client and we were developing a brand, you’d walk into the conference room and it would be like, “This is what our office looks like. This is what our customers like to do. This is who they are. This is who we’re trying to reach.” Based upon all of that, we would pick materials. If it’s an older audience, they could afford more expensive apparel. If it was a concert venue or something like that or a band or a big giant concert that everybody got together to help a charity or something like that, then it had to be a little less expensive, so more people could get it. It was what do they buy? What types of movies do they watch? What kind of – and all of that would help us form the materials that we were going to pitch and the colors, even a lot of times what colors you cannot ever use.
For example, we did some work for Martini, the Martini & Rossi that liquor. In those color palettes, we had, it was like a duotone of blue and black, it was very cool looking. But our brand standards specifically showed every neon color and said, “You cannot ever use any of these colors in our brand or these papers or this font.” You can get really drilled down. But the process is so comprehensive. It’s not – I mean, when we say print, we’re also talking about now, apparel, we’re talking about merch, there’s so much merch out there and stickers. Who knew stickers were going to come back around.
[0:36:09] NT: What you just described like, the fabric could be dye sub. That’s further away from – think about, you’ve named about, there’s about five or six different processes and they’re not all going to play the same.
[0:36:20] DC: No, signage in the buildings. Yes, restaurants, menus.
[0:36:22] NT: Well, someone’s going to have to decide how much we’re going to suspend disbelief when we – I mean, we’ve all been down that. Well, the green here doesn’t match that green. Well, you’re looking at green paper, which is beat or dyed versus green ink on paper, the light reflect. We understand. I say, you’re not going to make it the same. You might as well try to make me the same as you. And it’s not – “Oh, well, that’s different.” It is not different. They don’t understand and they have to build in what’s okay, what their tolerance is.
[0:36:54] DC: Also, every possibility, even if you never put a decal on the side of a jet, which I have done before by the way.
[0:37:05] NT: Really?
[0:37:06] DC: Yes. I mean, I haven’t gone up on the ladder and done it, but I produced the material to go up on the private plane. Even if you’re never going to do that, you still show what the plane would look like if you did it. I’m just saying like, in the agency, we go through every possible thing. And then of course, we throw in things we really wanted to, like, “Hey, you should have this event where we unwrap this banner and drop it from the Eiffel Tower.” Just because the agency wants the publicity.
[0:37:34] NT: Would you have that foresight. If you’re going to do a Tiffany blue, you’re only doing that blue when it matches dead, and you’re going to use it in paper. They make all that paper, that color. You give up a lot when you do that. They’re rather branding. They leave the blue out in other places because they can’t match it on different kinds of processes.
[0:37:53] DC: Okay. I didn’t know that.
[0:37:55] NT: Yes, you know what I mean.
[0:37:56] DC: So then, they print white ink, the Tiffany in white ink?
[0:37:59] NT: Where?
[0:38:00] DC: Anywhere they’re using blue paper.
[0:38:03] NT: Well, yes, or you stamp it.
[0:38:06] DC: Oh, he just happens to have a Tiffany book in his little book in his hands.
[0:38:08] NT: A lookbook. It’s blind. They don’t do all this stuff.
[0:38:12] DC: All right, so he’s just showing us that they don’t actually print the white because –
[0:38:15] NT: They move like the they went away from their blue, because –
[0:38:19] DC: Well, they have complimentary colors on there –
[0:38:23] NT: Yes, you can print it and they do print it, but you’ll find, you get that scrolly black logo everywhere and that’s just as identifiable almost as the color. But the color, they try to use that paper because they match. I mean, you’ve done Tiffany work too, David, I’m sure.
[0:38:37] DD: I’m sure, yes.
[0:38:37] DC: Okay. I am going to ask you guys the last time that you were launching or evolving a brand, what was unexpected and what did you learn from the experience? I know it’s a big question and we’ve covered some of that in this conversation. So, just condense and then we’ll get to our last question. David?
[0:39:02] DD: I’m doing it now. I’m working with a fashion company and just to give the overview, they’re really high-end dungarees. She had bought all of her printing overseas and when everything came in, nothing matched. Not only did it not match, but she had different colors for different components. There was no way to actually put that all together. So, the first thing that we talked about is what are those vehicles that she’s sending out? What is she sending out to PR? What is she sending out in the box when people buy it? What does the label look like on the box if people are going to be able to recognize it?
Then in determining that, we determined that her colors were originally this dark, dark blue and a cream. It really, as far as I was concerned, fell apart. Nobody could match that dark blue, almost black, almost blue. I said, “Well, why don’t we go with black on here. So, nobody has to worry about that.” Then there was one piece that she did that had a beautiful red in it. I said, “Why don’t we marry the red and the black?” As a result, we began to change everything over, everything. So, we’ve created a monster of various productions.
By walking her through this and by having her change that, she sent, we did 100 pieces, she sent one to a PR company, that PR company got her into Vogue. The idea is that it has momentum. What is it going to do? How are people going to remember it? Now, when we do next years, maybe it’s not the same size, but it is the same colors. They’re going to say, “The receiver is what are they doing now? What are they putting together now?”
So, you’re doing the same type of project, you’re changing sizing of it, but the end result is that you get recognition. I don’t care whether you’re doing a hundred pieces or you’re doing a hundred thousand pieces. This critical front end needs to be balanced. Some people are just, they shake their head, “Yes, okay, we’ll do this and we’ll do that and we’ll do this.” Well, those components are great, but none of them go together. How are we going to get them to go together? That was the challenge.
I’m lucky enough that they took my advice in doing that. Now, that people are expecting to see what’s next with this brand.
[0:41:41] DC: Noel?
[0:41:41] NT: It’s all about the blue. So, last summer I had a project, it was a high-end designer I know, and he recommended me and it’s a high-end fashion brand, but they’re really fantastic. I went around with them for about six weeks. And the first one is one that I finally said, “I don’t know that I can make you happy.” Everything was this blue, this like baby blue. I even printed it, I got blue paper, we tried to get the palette right, and I don’t think it really represented their brand and they wouldn’t let go, and we did what we thought was right. And then it got to the point where I just didn’t feel or believe in it. I never give up. We didn’t end up doing it. And we both just decided that they’re still playing with it like nine months later.
The second one is another baby blue. I’m about to do another huge real estate thing on a billionaire beach in Miami and everything. It’s a giant agency that I know that – well, it’s a design agency and a famous designer I’ve known forever. It’s all about baby blue. But you’re talking about fabric wrap boxes. You’re talking about books. You’re talking about cotton. Jamun makes a gentleman’s blue. It’s all about that.
So, we’re talking about, and I talked about this earlier, how we make them all the same without making them the same because they ain’t going to be the same. What do we do? What do we just go away from? You know what I mean? Just leave the blue go. How much is enough to suspend disbelief that they work together? And they’re listening and it’s going very, very well, I think, but it’s, when people just give in to one color and it’s all about that, it’s a very difficult thing to do.
I know we just talked about it in the last segment, but that’s – so there’s one that worked and one that didn’t because they wouldn’t flex and they couldn’t understand, they weren’t mad, but they couldn’t understand that there had to be some give and take. It didn’t mean their brand wasn’t the same. You know what I mean? If a blue fabric bag didn’t look exactly the same as a blueprinted business card. It’s the same brand if you do it right. And the others are, they go, “No, that’s great.” It’s just so funny. It’s potato, potato. You know what I mean? One person’s bust is another person’s boon. So, I don’t know if I answered that properly, but I see it all the time.
It has to do with the way you think about it and how mal – not malleable, but how open you are to sticking to your brand, but listening to what’s possible and what’s not and pivoting with that information. You can still keep your brand, right? And that’s, I think it comes down to who the clients are. Then usually, luckily, I know David as well, we have clients who will listen. It’s not that we’re telling them what to do, but they’ll watch us go, “Yes, but this will work and this won’t, and watch this,” and they’ll take from that, right? “Oh, well, I like that,” but they never could have dreamed that up or seen it on a screen, but we actually do things and make things and hand it to them. But then they got to go, “You can’t just go, I don’t know.” Because then it goes on for a while a year like that, and other people listen and they go with it.
[0:45:02] DC: Yes. Branding assignments go on for a very long time. We had strategic account managers in the agencies. And these were my favorite people because they would just come back with the strategy and all the research about the company that we were working with. To your point, Noel, about, you can’t just live in one color. We would start thinking like, what does the brand look like in a sunset? What does it look like in the morning? What does it look like on the beach? What does it look like at the pool? And started to incorporate those other colors into the palette based upon who are the people? What do they do? What do they like to do? Why are they going to this rent this apartment in the Ritz-Carlton or buy it? One of these days I’m getting one of those.
Okay. To wrap this all up, David finish the sentence. Great branding through print is –
[0:46:00] DD: All right. Great branding through print is a powerful way to create lasting tangible impressions that communicate a brand’s identity, values, and quality with clarity and impact.
[0:46:18] DC: Love it. Noel. Great branding through print is –
[0:46:21] NT: I agree and I simplified. Ready? Memorable and it creates an action or an emotion.
[0:46:28] DC: My answer was one word. Great branding through print is memorable. Period. End of story. Gentlemen, thank you so much for a very interesting and thought-provoking conversation. Noel, I must see the green ink on the green paper somehow. I’m begging you. I will send you a self-return envelope to get a little swatch from you. Until next time, everybody, thank you so much for your time and attention. Make It With Print long and prosper.
[OUTRO]
[0:46:59] DC: Thanks for listening to Podcasts from the Printerverse. Please subscribe, click some stars, and leave us a review. Connect with us through printmediacentr.com. We’d love to hear your feedback on our shows and topics that are of interest for future broadcasts. Until next time, thanks for joining us. Print long and prosper.
[END]
