[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:05] DC: Time is one thing we can’t make more of, but we can make more of what we do with it. Welcome to Time Management Tips in 20, where productivity expert Sarah Ohanesian, Founder of SO Productive, helps you take back your day one smart habit at a time. In each episode, Sarah shares practical, proven strategies to help you prioritize what matters. Get out of overwhelm and get more done without working more hours. Because when you use your time with purpose, productivity becomes less about output and more about making space for what matters most at work and at home. Let’s begin. Your time starts now.
[EPISODE]
[0:00:54] DC: Hey, everybody. Welcome to Podcasts From the Printerverse. This is Deborah Corn, your Intergalactic Ambassador. We are here with Time Management Tips in 20, which means that the one and only #timesherpa is on the other end of this microphone, Sarah Ohanesian, the founder of SO Productive. Sarah, tell everybody a little bit about SO Productive before we start.
[0:01:20] SO: Oh, sure. SO Productive is a training and consulting company. Really, two ways that I work with teams. One is training, corporate training, coming in, teaching the team how to be more productive through a workshop, or a keynote. Then the other way is implementing what we learn. That looks more like consulting and coaching and me coming in and getting our hands dirty a little bit more and actually diving in and getting to work with the team. Learning and then implementing.
[0:01:47] DC: Everybody who listens to the podcast, you basically get Sarah for free. So do I. It’s one of my favorite things. Thank you so much for volunteering your time and your thought leadership to the listeners of this podcast. In our last episode, we started the conversation about clarity, and the first step in potentially realizing you might be the problem is saying something along the lines of, “Why does this keep happening to me? Why is this person never understanding what I’m talking about? Why can’t I get this job through this particular shift? What is going on here? What is wrong with them?”
[0:02:35] SO: Exactly.
[0:02:36] DC: Now we’re going to turn this inwards a bit and try to preempt these situations.
[0:02:44] SO: I want to really hone in on what Deborah said there. Blaming other people is our natural instincts. They’re not getting it. They’re the problem. I was clear. I don’t know why they don’t understand. That is exactly the point where the emotion starts getting heightened. We get frustrated with each other. We start to resent people. We’re getting mad. That’s when work becomes hostile and these toxic work environments get created.
[0:03:09] DC: Why am I getting an email about this again? If they’re calling me about the same job, I’m going to loot. I mean, I’m literally reliving my last couple of years.
[0:03:18] SO: I’m dredging some stuff up for Deborah here.
[0:03:21] DC: You’re definitely triggering me right now.
[0:03:24] SO: Right. My intention with this concept around clarity is to mitigate that, because it’s really not about the person, likely. They’re likely not a bad person. They probably do want to do a good job. They probably do want to succeed past your expectations. So often, our first instinct is they’re not doing it. They’re the problem. I’m getting mad at them. My recommendation here is just double check that you have been as clear as you can be. It’s not perfect. It might not work every single time. But more often, and Deborah, I work with companies of all shapes, sizes, industries, and what I just kept finding was we have a clarity problem.
Burnout is happening, because what I talk a lot about is productivity and burnout. I kept hearing, “I’m so overwhelmed. I’m so stressed out. I’m so burned out.” I thought we have more tips, tricks, hacks, apps, tools to help us than ever. Why are we so burned out? Why are we so frustrated? About 18 months later, after working across all these industries and all these interesting teams, I thought, oh, it is clarity, because it is the thing that I kept seeing as the real problem underneath the problem is we are not clear about what our expectations. Let me go right into tip number one for today’s podcast, which is being more specific about what we actually want. We have to be as clear as we can possibly be, so that we can try to get the expectation that we’re hoping for. Clarity is the problem. I am beyond convinced of that now at this point.
[0:05:07] DC: In that case, you could be checking things off on a little job ticket, whether it’s online or not. If it’s not ticked off, everything stops until the answer to that question is answered, because that could affect the last step from the first step, right? But all communication does not come with, “We can’t mess this up because it costs money if we mess this up,” type of communications. In the last episode, I did say that I’m now putting my own checklist in there like, was this clear? Do you have any questions? Short of, repeat back what I just asked you to do. Specific in practice is going to need a lot more definition, because –
[0:05:59] SO: It does.
[0:06:00] DC: I don’t think anybody who does it, and I’m talking to myself, doesn’t think they’re being clear to begin with. I say this as someone who’s like, okay, I’ve recognized that something’s going on with this communication chain here. So, let me be super clear with a bulleted email. I mean, what is the person supposed to –
[0:06:25] SO: What’s a girl supposed to do here, Deborah? No, for sure. I think this really butts up at the first part of micromanaging, and so many of us don’t want to micromanage. I want to be clear that micromanaging is when we’re doing work that we shouldn’t be doing. We have no business doing this. We’re actually getting in the way when we’re micromanaging. This is more on the lines of processes, standard operating procedures, SOPs, templates, checklists. This is making sure that in that last episode, we talked a lot about recognizing a pattern. If it happens more than three times, it’s a pattern. That starts to be the stuff that we should have a checklist for. Every time a client sends us a job, we should have a checklist to make sure that all the answers that we know we need to ask are being answered. That’s being clear. That’s not micromanaging. That’s having a process. That’s making sure we have the answers that we need.
It’s really about making sure that, again, there’s going to be some wild cards, but for the most part, there’s a standardized process for how we do things, because it’s a way that we can get as many questions answered upfront before we start doing the work. Because what we’re trying to do is not waste time doing work that we didn’t needed, having to send emails and communication back and forth and back and forth. We could get those answers upfront. Really about being, again, specific, very, very specific about what’s the outcome? What do we want? What do we need? When do we need it? Again, I would argue that if you are in this industry, a client would look at that and go, “Wow, they’re really buttoned up. They’ve got a process in place. This place is going to be great to work with.”
I would say, those processes are really very different. Micro-managing. That’s a whole different thing. We can do an episode on that. This is about being organized and really setting ourselves up for success every single time.
[0:08:16] DC: Okay. I’m just going to throw out another example here, because not everything is related to a process which should be very clear to everybody on the team. I say should, because it’s not all.
[0:08:28] SO: Oh, yeah. I have a lot of clients. I joke. We’re like, “Oh, yeah, yeah. We have a process.” I’m like, “Do you mind sending it over to me?” Then they think, “Oh, yeah. Maybe we actually don’t have the process.”
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:08:39] SO: I’m Sarah Ohanesian, and my Productivity Power Hours help you plan your week ahead with clarity, control, and confidence. In just one focused hour-long session, I’ll guide you through my CODE method, a proven system to help you cut through chaos and build momentum that last all week. You’ll leave with a clear plan, realistic priorities, and a renewed sense of control. Schedule your Productivity Power Hour at so-productive.com, because the right plan on Monday changes everything by Friday.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:09:18] DC: In another sense, “Hi, somebody. The client is coming to town. Please make a reservation for dinner for six at 8.00. No specifying the restaurant.” Person does it, makes the reservation. Everyone goes. It turns out it is the best place for seafood in the city that you’re in, and the client is deathly allergic to seafood. Now, there was clarity, make the reservation, this many people, this time, make it nice. The person thought that they were doing the best job, but it didn’t work out, because there was actually clarity that was missing.
[0:10:00] SO: Missed. Yeah.
[0:10:01] DC: But whose responsibility is that?
[0:10:05] SO: Ours and theirs. It’s everyone’s responsibility. Clarity is everyone’s responsibility. Deborah, this really leads us to tip two, which is don’t assume the context is shared. Don’t assume that they knew the client was allergic to shellfish. Don’t assume that we asked that the client was allergic to – I am actually allergic to shellfish, so this example really resonates with me. We often think that just because I know something that you know it, too. We think that. My knowledge of this, my assumption, they’re the same as everyone else. My brain works like everyone else. We just did a neurodiversity episode as well. That assumption is quite challenging. It presents a lot of challenges, because we assume everyone knows the information that we do, but they don’t.
One of the steps that we have to take is one, are we being clear about what outcome we want? The second part of it, let me share with you everything that I know so far to be relevant to today. This client is landing at 4 p.m. Dinner at least has to be 6.00 or later, some logistical things. This client is actually allergic to seafood. Seafood restaurant wouldn’t be the best. I already asked them about it. You don’t have to ask them again. It’s really about bringing people up to speed, because we cannot assume that they’ve done as much of that work as we have. Now, the example I’ll share here is I was in a –
[0:11:28] DC: Can I just –
[0:11:28] SO: Please.
[0:11:29] DC: I just want to say one thing about that example. I’m sorry for interrupting. The clarity in this situation might have to happen after. Okay, we all messed that one up. Moving forward, if whomever is requesting dinner reservations is the person responsible for communicating any dietary needs of the guests –
[0:11:55] SO: Love it.
[0:11:56] DC: – you’ve done the story, because whoever’s making the reservation could be somebody in the office, it could be somebody in your house. You’re like, “Hey, do me a favor, just jump on open table and grab a, fine.” That’s who I would say. I would say, the person requesting is the one who has to work this all out. Because trust me, when they get the next day, or when the client leaves, that seafood restaurant will be discussed in a, what the hell happened? Who dropped the ball? I mean, I’m going to point to the person who requested that.
[0:12:28] SO: Totally. I think money is really important in that an example as well. What’s an appropriate place to take this client for dinner? Well, they’re our best clients, so the top restaurant in the city is appropriate. Or, you know what? We’re meeting them for the first time. We want to make a really good impression. That is also important. Also, what is a great restaurant to one person is not a great restaurant to the next person. Let’s have some expectations there for sure.
I think it’s great, because it feeds right back into point number one is, now we’ve got a process for that. I’m actually immediate past president of an association and we would have speakers come in and their dietary restrictions are part of our process. What do you need? Okay. We’re going to make sure we’ve handled that. We just added it in as part of our process. I think that not assuming and then when you learn something, “oh, we shouldn’t have assumed that,” added to your process, you won’t do it again the next time.
Deborah, what I was going to add in there is we also assume that people know as much as us. What I mean by that, I was sitting at a different event and someone says to me, “My team just can’t keep up with me. I’m reading books all the time and I’m listening to podcasts. I listened to a podcast for an hour in the car and then I walk into the office and I’m all fired up and I don’t know why the team doesn’t know what I’m talking about.” Well, they haven’t listened to the same podcast that you’ve listened to. They haven’t read the same book. Again, that’s my point about knowledge, what’s in our brain and what we’ve learned and what’s important to us right now, it’s not the same as everybody else. We cannot assume that they have that shared context. That’s really important for us.
The third tip for today is closing the loop. You’ve hinted that this a little bit in our previous conversations, but this is about taking the time to make sure at the end of every conversation, we close the loop. We’re in alignment. Are we on the same page? Can you walk me through the next steps? Just to confirm, this is what we’re delivering. I would love to encourage people to say, “The way I understand it is.” The way I understand it is that we’re going to do this. This is what’s expected of me. It’s due on Friday by four o’clock. Do I understand that right? Are we on the same page? Yes, yes. Perfect. Beautiful. Close the loop. You’re out of there.
So often, at the end of meetings, we just run off to the next meeting. But that one or two sentences again, close the loop, make sure you are understanding, right? Alignment isn’t just like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got it.” It’s actually repeating back. Again, you might say, “Oh, now we’re micromanaging. We don’t have time for that.” That little micro step right there is going to save you a ton of time later.
[0:15:04] DC: Yeah. if you file it under CYA, cover your ass, right? Ever since the AI tools have been integrated into Zoom and Teams and all those meetings, I have to say, I love that follow-up email that comes now. It didn’t take someone an hour to bullet point everything that was discussed. All they have to go through is the transcript and pull out the next steps that everybody agreed to, send it in an email. If nothing else, what do you want from me? We all had this meeting. We all made agreements. I sent out those agreements as the, “Hey, just to reiterate, what are the next steps. Here they are.” What the hell isn’t clear about that? In a sense, sometimes solving the problem is also removing yourself from it. Like, it’s not me, it’s not my communication. I get that there is a problem. I want to be part of the solution. But everybody stop pointing your fingers at me, that you didn’t know what to do. Read your damn emails. I’m sorry, that’s our process here.
It always goes back to the creatives, because this is a very PTSD subject if you deal with a lot of creatives, or ever have. Because they’re like, “Well, I don’t read emails.” But you have to understand that they don’t. Then perhaps, after the first time everything goes to hell, after that meeting, you go to their office and you’re like, “Hey, Edwin.” Not that I’m using a real example of a guy named Edwin that used to drive me insane like this. I would literally go into his office, close the door, go to his calendar, which was not an online calendar. It was at this point, everyone had them hanging in the walls, and take a magic marker and write the dates that I needed things from him. If I wanted it. If I wanted it.
Was I micromanaging? Was I, I don’t know, but all I know is that I wanted to take myself out of the problem by trying to preempt it in some way. But it is very time consuming. It is very annoying. You say to yourself, why can’t this person just read, stop being so selfish and read their damn emails, or look at the production schedule, or whatever it might be. I know I’m going off on this, but this is because –
[0:17:23] SO: She’s got a rant. She’s on a rant.
[0:17:25] DC: It’s happening to me. I’m in the throes of being the person who is causing the things not to be clear. At least, I’m taking ownership of it now. Until I try everything I can do on my end, then I’m going to start blaming everybody else.
[0:17:42] SO: Well, and I think that the really critical part is we started with, this is what we’ll end with is the blame game. We were trying to get out of the blame game and we have to set expectations that are clear. If we need “Edwin,” poor Edwin, who may or may not be listening to this.
[0:17:58] DC: He was a very talented gentleman. He knows who he is.
[0:18:04] SO: If we need Edwin to answer email, because that is critical because that’s where the client information lives, that’s part of the expectation. If the email isn’t about a client, then don’t read it. But if it is, maybe we flag it in a certain way. Again, it’s all about clarity mixed with process, mixed with trying to not blame the people and making sure that we’re setting up the process to be as easy and as clear as it can be, so the people can just go do the work that they need to do. Because the clearer you are at the beginning, the less time we’re going to spend fixing things going back again and getting frustrated with each other. That’s what we’re trying to fix.
[0:18:41] DC: Okay. I’m going to have a big push back on this one for you.
[0:18:45] SO: Good. Love it.
[0:18:47] DC: Edwin is never going to read his email. He’s not going to do it. It doesn’t matter that it’s the process. It does not matter. He’s not going to do it. Therefore, if you want to, in the same sense, you have to have clarity that that is the situation.
[0:19:04] SO: That could be. How else then can we get Edwin that information? Edwin’s got to give information somehow.
[0:19:10] DC: No, Edwin has to follow the information. He got it in the creative brief, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to do what he needs to do when he needs to do it by the time he gets back to his office.
[0:19:21] SO: Yeah. Again, that’s tip one, right? Be specific about the outcome. Does it matter if Edwin reads the email, or gets it this way, or gets it that way? What matters is that Edwin gets the work done. I think this is also about clarifying what is important and what really matters. Maybe he does have to read his email to get the information. Maybe the information can flow another way and he just has to read it and design it. There’s also situations where we’re frustrated with someone, because they’re not doing it the way I would do it. But does it matter if the outcome is what we intended it to be? That’s a question to think about for the listeners.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:20:00] DC: Supporting professional growth is good for people, and it’s great for business. When you sponsor Girls Who Print, you’re helping to deliver mentorship, leadership development, and career advancement tools to women across the print industry. Our annual sponsorship packages are designed to fit companies of all sizes with benefits that align with your goals, support equitable workforce development in your company and the industry, and elevate your brand. If you’re ready to stand out and step up to support Girls Who Print, visit girlswhoprint.org and download our sponsorship packages today. Empower long and prosper.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:20:44] DC: Okay. Well, I do think it matters. Because again, I’m telling you, this is a touchy subject, because in one sense, that’s your job, Edwin. Your job is to do this. You’re causing me extra work to have to do this with you. But at the end of the day, so I get what I need and so does everybody else. I would just say to this is one thing. If you can show that by executing with clarity, by making sure that you’re part of the clarity loop, whatever we want to call it, it’s beneficial to them, that’s a thing to point out.
For example, “Hi, Edwin. Friday four o’clock. Just want to let you know, we did everything we needed to do this week. So, as soon as you’re good, we don’t have to stay late tonight. Nobody’s coming in over the weekend.” Oh, because everybody followed the production schedule. Isn’t that nice? Don’t you have a vacation coming up two weeks? Don’t you want to be stress-free? I’ll be back on Monday morning with the status report and we’ll review all of this. But then you start slowly saying like, “Oh, and the status report also lives online, and let me show you where it is.” But you can’t assume he’s going to do it.
[0:22:06] SO: Right. I also believe, and in this maybe as a plug for our other podcast we recently recorded on neuro diversity, but everyone’s brains are different and everyone processes information differently. I think it’s really – though clarity, having that conversation on, it seems like email is not working for you. What would be helpful for me? Again, it’s not about blaming people, or somebody’s brain. It’s really about figuring out, we got to compromise, we got to come together. Our outcome is that we’re producing something really good for the client. Help me help you figure out the best way to accomplish that goal, and let’s do it together, so we can both get out of here before four o’clock on Friday and have a nice weekend.
I think it’s, again, it’s about clarity and communication. Opening up that conversation for nobody’s a bad person, everybody’s trying to do their best, but maybe there is a blockage somewhere in the process that’s causing a bit of a problem here. Listen to the last episode, this episode, and the neurodiversity episode, and I think there’ll be a lot more clarity for everybody.
[0:23:09] DC: Yeah. I have to say that that comment just stopped me dead in my tracks, because you are absolutely right. At the time, neurodiversity was not something that was discussed at all. It was literally like, what is your problem? But you’re absolutely right. You’ve changed my mind about it completely. I agree now, the blame game is not going to get you anywhere. Now you’ve messed me up, because I’m on your side on this.
[0:23:38] SO: How are we even going to have a show if we agree?
[0:23:40] DC: I’m just saying like, now I want to go back to Edwin and sit in his office and just be like, “How can I help you get what you need, in the way that you need it?” Which I never did. I was just like, I need to get him to do what I need him to do. I’m going to do that any way I need to do it.
[0:24:00] SO: Yeah. I think clarity, it is about us recognizing that we haven’t been clear enough, but it’s also about making sure that person feels they can get the clarity they need in the way that they need it. Deborah, my new keynote’s called The Clarity Gap. This is exactly what’s happening. When we can close the gap, that’s what it is. It’s about the two sides of that valley coming together over time, certainly because it’s hard work, but that’s when everybody can start to thrive at work. We spend so much time at work, let’s try to thrive at work.
[0:24:33] DC: I love that so much. I will just say this last thing. There are two people in the industry, Jamie McLennan, Jamie the printer and David Wang, who’s an industry analyst. Those are my two go-to guys when I need to understand something, because they know how to explain it to me. I have nothing to do with the printing industry. All their examples have to be like, okay, if you have a waffle, and then the waffle needs to – and then I understand. But if they’re like, “Well, the rip takes the thing and goes,” I’m like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s no clarity. But when it’s explained to me in a way that I can absorb it, which is talk to me like somebody who has no idea what a printing press does, because guess what, I don’t. I’m not trying to build one. I just want to know what I can make with it, right?
[0:25:17] SO: Exactly.
[0:25:18] DC: I wish you said that in the beginning of this episode. We would have had a totally different discussion. But I’m glad it came out at the end, because I have to say with some clarity that there are a lot of people who are listening to this podcast who are like, “That’s right, Deborah. You tell her. They’re crazy. They’re not listening. They’re just doing what they want to do, instead of listening.” But you’re right. Are they actually hearing you, which is even more important.
[0:25:46] SO: Yeah. Hearing you in a way that they can actually process and receive that information, which again, it’s a big topic. There’s a lot to unpack there. But I believe in my heart that most people are showing up to work, trying to do a good job. I really believe that. I’ve worked with so many different people and teams and sizes and industries and shapes and everything. I just think most people want to do a good job, but this clarity piece is what I’m seeing is causing a major problem right now.
[0:26:14] DC: I really appreciate your time, your thought leadership and for changing my mind on this, which you really did. You know it’s not always so easy to change my mind about things.
[0:26:23] SO: It’s not. I’ll vouch for that.
[0:26:24] DC: Yeah. But when it’s clear, it’s clear. Thank you so much for that. Thanks again to everybody who listened. I know it’s Time Management Tips in 20, but these last two and got a little testy and I will definitely include the link to the podcast we did with Jeff, your partner about neurodiversity in the workplace in the show notes. Thanks everyone for hanging in there. Until next time, operate with clarity long and prosper.
[END OF EPISODE]
[0:26:55] DC: Thanks for listening to Time Management Tips in 20. To connect with Sarah at SO Productive and find links for any resources we mentioned in this episode, just check out the show notes. Remember, all the great programming from Podcasts From the Printerverse is streaming 24/7 on printfmradio.com, the world’s first Internet radio station dedicated to print and graphic communications. Until next time, time manage long and prosper.
[END]
