[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:05] DC: Time is one thing we can’t make more of, but we can make more of what we do with it. Welcome to Time Management Tips in 20, where productivity expert Sarah Ohanesian, Founder of SO Productive, helps you take back your day one smart habit at a time. In each episode, Sarah shares practical, proven strategies to help you prioritize what matters. Get out of overwhelm and get more done without working more hours. Because when you use your time with purpose, productivity becomes less about output and more about making space for what matters most at work and at home. Let’s begin. Your time starts now.
[EPISODE]
[0:00:54] DC: Hey everybody, welcome to Podcasts From the Printerverse. This is Deborah Corn, your Intergalactic Ambassador. And today, we are here with Time Management Tips in 20, which means I am here with the time Sherpa herself, Sarah Ohanesian from SO Productive.
Sarah, I am really glad that you are here today and we’re having this conversation because I am going through this cycle now where I keep saying to myself, “Why does this keep happening to me?” And this is around communication that I think on my end is completely clear. How could there be any question? I’ve rewritten this email 13 times to make sure it was clear. But yet what comes back is like I live on a completely different planet.
[0:01:43] SO: Mm-hmm. Well, Deborah, unfortunately, I hear this a lot, and it causes a lot of frustration. What I hear a lot is I’m not getting what I wanted. The team keeps making mistakes. The team is frustrated then because they have to go do the work again. And just everybody’s spiraling and spinning around and around and getting more frustrated. And over time, really becoming resentful of each other because there is this extreme frustration around. It wasn’t clear. We were not on the same page. We were both making assumptions. But now that when it becomes a problem is because now I’m actually getting mad at you about it. The mistakes, the rework, then that leads into all kinds of emotions associated with that. Unfortunately, Deborah, I hear this a lot. So you’re not alone. So, I’m really glad we’re doing an episode about it.
[0:02:31] DC: Okay. So, as I mentioned when we first came on, this is like I’m hearing this a lot from people now. That wasn’t clear to me. I didn’t understand what you meant. I’ve had a little more bravado come at me, too, in the sense of how am I supposed to know what’s in your head?
And something I learned a while ago that was definitely a big lesson for me to learn was once you start saying to yourself, “Why does this keep happening to me?” point the finger right at yourself because it’s happening to you because you’re creating a situation where it happens. But in the same sense, Sarah, I think I’m being totally clear.
For me, at least, I know it’s a pattern, and I have to address it in some way, but it’s difficult to see when you’re potentially the one who’s causing the problem. It’s very clear to see when you’re on the other end of it, and you’re like, “Okay, I was in the same meeting, and that is not what I heard at all.”
[0:03:33] SO: Well, Deborah, if I may share a little peek behind the curtain. Last week, in full transparency, Deborah and I were having a conversation, just a friendly catch-up because we hadn’t chatted since the last time we recorded an episode. And you said, “I’m noticing something, and that is a pattern.”
And so one, Deborah, kudos to you for being self-aware enough to say, “Hey, I’m having a problem here, and I’m noticing a pattern.” And I think that’s really, really hard to do. Let’s just like cheers to Deborah. Congrats to Deborah on noticing that there’s a pattern here and saying –
[0:04:05] DC: I’m unclear, everybody.
[0:04:08] SO: No, but it’s more about, “Hey, I’m recognizing that I might be the problem.” I mean, that’s what you said. You said, maybe I’m not being clear. I think I am, but maybe I’m not being that. Actually, this is how this episode came to be today.
The first tip I would have for people is notice the pattern, which is exactly what you did. You said, “I’m noticing something. Maybe I’m not being as clear as I thought I’m being.” And so, recognizing the pattern is really the first step. And that takes us being self-aware. And I understand that is not that easy for us to do, but we’ve got to recognize the pattern. If you’re saying that phrase, “Why does this keep happening to me?” Ding, ding, ding. That’s a signal that it – can we reference Taylor Swift on this podcast? Like it’s me. Hi.
[0:04:50] DC: Yes, Tay Tay.
[0:04:51] SO: I’m the problem. It’s me. That might be what’s happening. Recognizing, being self-aware if you are seeing a pattern, that there might be something going on there. Doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. Doesn’t mean you’re a bad leader or a bad manager. It just might be a definition of there is some kind of communication gap happening here. And maybe you can improve upon it. So that’s what we’re looking for.
Just before diving into emotions, just taking that second to say, “Hmm, I am noticing that repeatedly with this same person, or this same client, or this same process, I’m noticing that there’s a pattern.” And in some cases, it might be me.
[0:05:30] DC: Yeah. I mean, in all fairness, to recognize a pattern, it has to happen a lot of times. I don’t know if Mercury was in retrograde or something was going on. But my communication had just broken down. But Sarah, I think the part that I’m still not clear on at all is I think I’m being clear. How do I become clearer when I already think that I’m being clear? So, how do you know that you can improve, I guess, is what I’m saying.
[0:06:09] SO: Yeah. Before we hit that, how do we know it’s a pattern? What I would say is three times. Three times is really my golden rule. And that goes to I recognize the same thing happened three times. That’s not really a coincidence or random anymore. That’s a signal of a pattern. And that’s three times of the same ask and not getting what you want, or the same person not getting what you want. If you’re noticing this has happened about three times or more, that starts to be the definition of a pattern. That’s kind of the golden number to pay attention to.
Okay. The second part is really that we feel like we’re on this racetrack and we just have to go. We got to rush. We got to get it done. We got to move on to the next thing. So, it feels like you’re being clear, and it might just be you’re just going really, really quickly because you have a lot to do. We all have a lot on our plates.
First tip is recognize the pattern. Second is really take a minute. Just take a beat and make sure that instead of just racing and trying to get through it, the pause and trying to make sure that you are breaking it down into bite-sized pieces, really taking the time to properly communicate with that other person and asking, “What am I really trying to accomplish here?”
I think the first part of it is really making sure we’re clear with ourselves in the first place of “What am I going to ask this person to do?” And take the time to properly explain things to them rather than just like on to the next. Speed is not our friend in this situation. So, we really got to slow down, take a minute, take that pause, and take the time that we need to explain it to people quite well.
[0:07:50] DC: I mean, so much of this is open to interpretation.
[0:07:53] SO: Of course. I’m a consultant, Deborah. That’s what I do.
[BREAK]
[0:07:57] SO: I’m Sarah Ohanesian, keynote speaker and corporate trainer. When companies call me in, it’s because their people are overwhelmed, burned out, stretched thin, and trying to do too much with too little clarity. Through my keynotes and workshops, I help teams rebuild how they work with clarity, alignment, and momentum that drives meaningful results. You can book me for your next team retreat, all-hands meeting, or an association event. Learn more about how I help teams work better at sarahohanesian.com.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:08:33] DC: Well, I guess the thing is that I think I’m being clear. The person receiving my information, perhaps they think they understand what I mean, or perhaps they’re like, “Okay, I think this is what she means, so I’ll interpret it this way.” Or they just interpret it the way that they want.
And when we were having this conversation offline, I put this whole example into creative briefs and creatives. You cannot go to a creative and say, “Hey, we need some artwork of a sunset, and then leave the office and think – have anyone think that you’re going to get anything remotely what anybody had in their head about what that sunset is. So that’s why there’s a creative brief that literally defines the sunset that they want, the time of day, the background that it’s in. Are there are people there? Are there not people? Is it for a specific client? Does it have to show the product? Whatever it might be, you cannot leave any of that up to interpretation. But then, how it’s manifested is creatively up to that person. But they can’t all of a sudden give you a sunset in a forest when you’re working on cruise ships, for example.
There’s a lot of work that goes into that, but you can still have people who are not on the same page there. But I feel like the other person has responsibility in this as well. So, talk about those people, because me and everyone listening –
[0:10:09] SO: There’s a problem, too, Taylor Swift. Yeah.
[0:10:10] DC: Yeah. Me and everybody listening are like, “Hey, we’re not taking full responsibility for this. What about the other people who just make assumptions and go about their life and make everybody have to do everything?” Don’t worry, listeners, I got you.
[0:10:23] SO: Right. It’s certainly a two-way street. And that’s really the part of slowing down. So often, we just want to race and go get in the work and dive right in. The creative brief is a perfect example. One, taking the time to make it, make it right, make sure it’s good, make sure it is in alignment with what the client originally asked for. And then the people that are doing the work as well, I think this is a really critical point, is they have to have permission to ask questions and say, “You mentioned a sunset. Is it in the forest? Is it over the sea? Is it in the desert? Where would you want that sunset to be?”
And so we have to allow this to be a two-way street so that people can feel safe and comfortable to raise their hand and say, “I’m not 100% clear.” Allow them to ask more questions. At the end of the day, what are we going for? A better net result. We don’t want to do work again. We don’t want to do it over. We don’t want to send the client something that they weren’t expecting or they didn’t want. We’re trying to mitigate ahead of time. Let’s all get clear on the same page. Ask as many questions as you need to ask, then go create so that we end up with a better finished product. It is certainly a two-way street.
I think what’s really cool about this is when everyone on the team takes responsibility for this. Now we have these open lines of communication. And asking for clarity, it just becomes a normal part of our company culture rather than this negative thing. It’s definitely a two-way street.
[0:11:49] DC: I mean, I only experience it as resentment, you know?
[0:11:54] SO: That’s – most people do.
[0:11:55] DC: Yeah. I mean, I’m being completely honest. Either I’m like, “Do I need to actually do this for somebody? What is going on here? Why can’t they understand? This is the fifth time I’m asking for the same thing. Again, this is the fifth time I am asking for the same thing. And they are just not getting it. Right? It’s them. How could it possibly be me? I know what I’m asking for.”
But then I start thinking, “Now I’m micromanaging this person. Should I just do it myself? Should I find someone else to do it? Now I’m annoyed. Now it’s taking longer than it did.” And just to go back to an advertising agency, that person being a few hours late affects everybody else down the line. You kind of can’t have that going on.
Then on the other end of it, now I’m getting – and believe me, I get a ton of emails and people reaching out to me, and I’m literally like reading the email four times and saying, “I have no idea what this person is asking me. I don’t have the context for it.” A lot of times, I’ll just reply back and say, “Hi, there. What are you talking about?” Or I don’t understand.
[0:13:08] SO: You’re taking that responsibility on. You’re saying I’m not clear. I should get some clarity before I answer this, potentially in the wrong way.
[0:13:15] DC: But I don’t work with this person, these people all the time. I’m not concerned that they’re my manager, and I keep asking them questions. I mean, I could have an entire fight with myself in my head about this. And on both sides of this argument, I am a 1000% right. It’s not exactly right, but my position is correct. You know? But it is so freaking frustrating because how does it end?
[0:13:47] SO: Absolutely. So, let me give you then tip number three that might help with this, and that is, “What does done mean?” And that’s quotes for those of you listening. What does done in quotes mean? And this is really, really critical because we have to define what done is. What is the finished sunset going to look like? Are we printing it? Are we mailing it? Are we putting it on mat? Are we hanging it in an art gallery? We have to know what the done product actually is.
And again, I think that’s where assumptions get us into trouble. I’m assuming everyone around me knows. They have the context of what the client wants at the end of the day. But the concept of what is done, and that means what is good enough, what is finished, what date do we want to have that done. It’s really thinking about all of the elements that are going to make you, Deborah, in this case, feel good to say, “Yeah, that’s done. We’re on the same page with what done means.” And when we’re on the same page with that, we can both say we are done officially, because we knew what done meant before we even started.
[0:14:52] DC: I’m shaking my head because, again, somebody thinks they’re being clear all the way about what done is. And then there are people who still aren’t clear. Just to put this back on me, because why not, what I decided to do was something I actually do with ChatGPT, by the way, because this happens to me more with ChatGPT than anything else. I realize I always ask it what the problem is. And I say things like, “This is great. It’s all perfect except this needs to change.”
But ChatGPT, all it hears is that a change is required. So it might rerender the artwork completely or redo the paragraph when I only wanted to change one sentence because it wasn’t framed correctly. I learned from ChatGPT that I’m not being clear at all because I’m talking to a computer program that only understands computer programs. And I’m creating the problems for myself there.
But what I decided to do, because I started doing this with ChatGPT, I would say to ChatGPT, “Confirm you understand what I mean, or say it back to me, or tell me what you’re going to do now.”
[0:16:10] SO: Exactly.
[0:16:10] DC: And sometimes I’m like, “Oh, it worked.” Sometimes what comes back I’m like, “Oh my god. Where is this coming from?” You know? That’s what I’ve started doing now. When it’s something, if I don’t want to go through it 20 times. And again, I’m not necessarily saying that I’m the only one to blame here, but what I can control is myself first before I have to make any decisions about will the person on the other end of this communication ever understand what I’m talking about.
[0:16:45] SO: I think the AI example is just so strong because most of us have experienced that at some point, it didn’t give me what I want. Well, the only person you have to blame yourself as that one because you’re the one putting the prompts in. And it’s really the exact same thing with human beings as well. We think they know everything that we know. We think they have the context of everything. We think they’re interpreting it the same way that we are.
This definition of done, I would say, way more people are not being clear on what done is compared to people who are. I think this is an area that most of us do have more work to do. Because, again, we think we’re being clear. But if this is happening to you more than three times, the definition of done, and what success looks like, and the final outcome, and the final goal of this, that is probably not clear. Or at least there is a misalignment happening there.
My point in making this the third tip is I just don’t think people are doing it. I really don’t. I think they’re dueling out assignments and saying, “Go, go, go, go, go. Good luck with the work.” Not realizing that it would be so valuable and so important if a couple more sentences got added on and got us into alignment on what does the finished product look like? And I just think people overlook it. I don’t think people are thinking about it. We’re not doing that final step.
[BREAK]
[0:18:01] DC: Leadership isn’t a title, it’s a journey. And Girls Who Print membership supports you at every step, with resources to grow your skills, boost your confidence, and expand your professional network. Through our member-exclusive programs, you’ll tap into industry expertise, connect with mentors and peers, and access opportunities that open doors you didn’t even know existed. Whether you want to lead a team, launch a business, or explore new possibilities in print, we are here to help you do it with community, not competition. Join Girls Who Print today and take the lead in your career. To learn more about our comprehensive membership program, visit girlswhoprint.org. Empower long and prosper.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:18:52] DC: And I would have to agree with you because that final step is 10 steps away from all the little unclear communication that’s going to happen before that. So you don’t need to know that that sunset is going to be using pitch materials for a new client. You don’t need to know that. You need to know the size. You need to know the color. You need to know what we want in the picture. And the rest of it is sort of on a need-to-know basis.
If your clarity requires that you need more information, then I think it’s up to that person to say, “Excuse me, it would really help me to know how this is being used.” It would really help me to know who’s presenting it. Let me tell you, different creative directors, art directors, and account people, they have their own styles. Somebody always wearing a suit, you give them a suit-worthy presentation, you know?
I don’t know if I agree with the big picture being the problem. I think it’s great to have the big picture, but it’s the steps along the way that is the problem. For example, if I’m trying to create more engagement through my social media channels and I am enlisting help with engaging with other accounts, and I only use the word engagement, there’s the problem. Because what I think is engagement obviously was not what someone else thought was engagement. And I’m like, “Why aren’t you liking people’s comments? Why aren’t you responding to people?” And they’re like, “Oh, I’m just keeping track of what’s going on.” And I’m like, “That’s not engagement.” You know what I’m saying? But then it was said to me that was not clear.
And, of course, you got to go back through all your evidence, the receipts as we call it, and I’m like, “She’s totally right. Nowhere here I clarify what I meant by engagement.” She had the big picture of what I wanted to do: create more activity. But my idea of how to get there and hers were completely different.
[0:21:00] SO: Exactly. Yeah.
[0:21:01] DC: That is why now the checklist is in play. Do you have any questions about this? Which is what I asked ChatGPT now too. I’m like, “Do you have any questions? Don’t start writing anything. Don’t start doing anything. Don’t give me an outline. I want to first let’s make sure we’re on the same page.” What are your thoughts on that? And then we’ll wrap it up with your best advice.
[0:21:21] SO: I totally agree. And I think engagement is a great example. Engagement is so vague and so nebulous, and it means something different to everyone. Engagement for you and engagement for me even. We both do a lot of social media. They might mean different things. And so that final concept of what does done mean? In this case, what does engagement mean to me? What does that look like? This is what I want. I want you to like people’s comments. I want you to comment back to them. I just want you to run a report and show me that we’re getting some engagement. Those are all different expectations. But defining what done is is going to get us really far.
Just to wrap this up, Deborah, is that first step is really pause, notice a pattern. It might be you who’s not being more clear, and that’s okay. We’re going to start with that self-awareness. And then really just slow down, take the pause, take the time to better set what those expectations are. And the real tactical takeaway from today is defining what done means and then making sure they can repeat that back to you. You are both on the same page.
[0:22:22] DC: I like it. And I will also add that the definition of done doesn’t have to be the whole thing. It could just be the next step. Like we always say, just eat the elephant one piece at a time. Make sure you’re clear on each step of the process. All right. I can get behind that.
Thank you so much for your time, Sarah Ohanesian. And everything you need to connect with Sarah is in the links in the show notes. I think we went a little over today, but thank you everybody for listening. This is obviously a topic we needed a little more clarity on. Until next time, have clarity long and prosper.
Thanks for listening to Time Management Tips in 20. To connect with Sarah at SO Productive and find links for any resources we mentioned in this episode, just check out the show notes. Remember, all the great programming from Podcasts From the Printerverse is streaming 24/7 on printfmradio.com, the world’s first Internet radio station dedicated to print and graphic communications. Until next time, time manage long and prosper.
[END]
