[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:02] NC: Does your printing need some passion?
[0:00:05] DD: Your design some dynamic dimension?
[0:00:08] DC: Are you stuck in a CMYK rut?
[0:00:11] DD: I’m David Drucker, founder and CEO of highresolution printing and packaging.
[0:00:16] NT: I’m Noel Tocci, founder of Tocci Made Bespoke Print Consulting.
[0:00:20] DC: And I’m Deborah Corn, the Intergalactic Ambassador to the Printerverse. Welcome to Making It With Print, the podcast that takes a deep dive into the conception, creation, and production of amazing printed products.
[0:00:34] DD: If you can dream it –
[0:00:35] NT: – you can make it.
[EPISODE]
[0:00:38] DC: Beautiful, impactful, and powerful print communication always lives at the intersection of great design, appropriate materials, and carefully planned and curated execution. That’s a quote from our co-host today, Noel Tocci, and it perfectly frames the conversation.
Print has never offered more possibilities than it does today. New technologies, materials, embellishments, different finishing techniques have expanded what’s possible at every stage of production. But with more options comes a greater need for planning, collaboration, and intentional decision-making. And that is what we’re talking about today.
We’re going to review the print process itself. From defining the desired result to aligning design, materials, production, and execution to create work that not only looks great, but delivers results. Noel has created a print process PDF which you can find the link to in the show notes. And you may want to pause now, download it, so you can refer to it during this conversation, but just know that it is there for you in the show notes.
Welcome to the Podcast From the Printerverse to Making It With Print. As I mentioned, I’m here with my co-host today, Noel Tocci, from Tocci Made. Hello, Noel.
[0:02:04] NT: Hello. Nice to be with you.
[0:02:05] DC: Nice to be with you. And of course, the fabulous David Drucker, who sent me a Cadillac, like Elvis, from highresolution printing and packaging. Hello, David Drucker.
[0:02:18] DD: Hey. How you doing, everybody? It’s once again great to be in front of my friends, because you never know where this is going to go.
[0:02:25] DC: This is true, especially since Noel is leading our conversation today. Go ahead, crazy man. Well, thank you both. And thank you. Good to see you both. And thanks for the introduction. And I’m going to jump right in. That little thing that Deborah said at the beginning about beautiful and impactful and powerful print communication is something I’ve had in my head for my 45-plus years. And only a couple of years ago did I write it down, and I want to get into the process.
But the reason I wrote it down is because there’s three distinct parts of that. And early on in my career, getting printing was – well, I’ll say it. A lot of the guys around me, I go, “We’re in a bar with an advertising agent, 1981, 1982.” This isn’t printing. And I quickly turned to printing, going on press, staying there all night trying to understand what made it go.
What I realized early on is that most of the print world were kind of in silos. You had the designers who made things. You had the printers who took whatever the designer gave them. And then you had also always needed materials. And I don’t think there was ever any thought about one caring for the other. That’s why I say silos.
This little thing that Deborah said, it encompasses all three, right? I can have the best design in the world if I use – and I’m not even going to say I don’t use expensive materials. They’re the correct or appropriate materials. If one is bad, if the design is bad and you got the best materials in the world and you got the best printer in the world, it all looks lousy. Or it not even looks lousy. Some people might not notice.
The idea is to get your desired result. Get to the desired result. And you have to put this together like you’re making a recipe, right? And anyone who’s a good cook, it’s about the ingredients, the freshest meat, fish, whatever it is. But we all know spices, timing, all of that plays into it. And if they don’t work together, if the guy goes, “I got the best ingredients in the world. I don’t give a crap about the timing. I don’t care that spice. I use this spice.” It’s not going to be what you think it’s going to be, or you can’t call it what it said in the recipe book.
And I know this sounds stupid and simple, and I’m getting verbose because everybody has to be good at something. And you guys know this by now, but I’m telling you. And now we’re right back to collaboration. What is collaboration? Right? I talked about materials. That’s understanding materials in the mills. I talked about printing. There’s especially now a million kinds of print. Not a million but there’s many different variables in printing and ways to print especially today.
And then you’ve got design, which is age-old. But it has to move from that intuitive creative thought to a machine which is binary. And you can’t slam one into the other. Those three things are so important. I thought, “Well, Noel, how do you not screw this up?” And to me, it’s a process.
And I’ve had some experience teaching in the design community, and I’ve had people ask me, it leaves me dumbfounded. A designer would say, “Well, where do I find a good printer?” Well, where do you find a significant other? Does your best friend lie to you every day? No. And if they do, they’re probably not your best friend. It’s like, “Oh.” Everything you do is the same way. You are who you are. You make good choices.
If you’re going to go do your fall cleanup in your yard, you make sure there’s gas in a lawnmower, you got eight hours to do it, you’re not tired. The whole nine. And people go, “Yeah, but that’s different.” No, it’s not different. You’re setting out to manufacture something. No two printing jobs have ever been the same. They’re custom manufacturers. And I don’t care if it’s just down to even the first and the second time you do it. So, you need process.
And I’m almost done taking the air out of the room. So what I looked at was where do we start and where do we finish? So if you’re looking at my chart, I just started not that I’m some brilliant guy. I needed a map to keep on track. Because if you haven’t noticed, I’m murky on glass, right? So you got an idea or a concept. And for me, people call me early on. We’re thinking of doing this. We got this new brand. We got these assets. We think they’re great. These pictures are great. And I love that uncoated paper. And what’s that, foil? I like that.
It begins there. And they say what they want to make, right? Maybe it’s I got to do, I don’t know, 40,000 mailers. They have to drop next May. And I can’t spend more than $70,000 or something. And that’s where it starts. That’s your desired result, which is way down the other end. I’m sorry.
The beginning is a little bit of inspiration, a little bit of direction. And then you have to get someone to pull it together for you. And if you look at this chart, and then I want to ask these guys what they think. the beginning of the chart, everything that comes up to once it’s awarded, you’re not done, but your plan is made. If I had a dollar for every time someone went on press and they go, “So, what do you think?” Then the designer goes, “Well, I think it’s nice. But I thought –” and he goes, “Oh, well, next time.” There should never be a next time.
So, I just think it’s good, like anything else in your life, to be prepared and work a process out that’s going to get you where you want to go. And by the way, that beginning part, I don’t advocate arguing, but the best things are with differing opinions that come to a conclusion. And I want to say one more thing. People say, “Well, that doesn’t work because I don’t got to talk to my vendor. I give him specs and I get his price. I get three prices.” That’s not how you make beautiful things.
Again, let’s go back to your friend. Do you trust your friend? You work with people that you can trust and be open with and tell them. If you don’t tell them what you have to spend, or what you’re thinking, or your innermost thoughts, it’s not poker. You don’t keep it a secret. And people go, “Well, I can’t.” Well, you have to. That’s where the most beautiful stuff comes from. That’s basically my thought here.
And we could break it down into areas. But I’d like each of you – Deborah, I know I was all over the place. But in your opinion, do you agree with me? But what is your thought about choosing a vendor in a process? Isn’t that something early on, like I said, that’s not – you’re not going to do that in a bid. You’re not. You got three bids. You’re going to get three sets of specs. And then you’re going to get whatever the winning guy wants to do.
[0:08:55] DC: Well, if I were ever in a situation where I didn’t – I would call my printer because I needed to create specs with somebody to begin with. It was something we had never done before. Or I remember one time, we did this very high pocket in a pocket folder just thinking what’s the big deal. And it set everybody at the printer into a spin. Because no matter how they figured it, they couldn’t fit it on the press in any way that would have made it affordable for us. I mean, we had to move our job to find a bigger press so we could put them, then fold that flap back over –
[0:09:40] NT: Right. And that’s backwards. The first thing that should have come out of their mouths is, “Wow, I’m inspired by this folder with this giant pocket. Most don’t have it.” That first meeting, you go, “Whoa. I’m saying to myself, is that going to – Okay.” And I’m making drawings and everything else. But you called somebody. Who did you call? You called someone you knew.
[0:09:56] DC: I called the printer that I trusted, just like what you said. And not only were they going to help me develop the specs, but I could also trust them to tell me if they could do the job or they couldn’t do the job. They weren’t just taking it for the sake of taking it. Right?
[0:10:14] NT: And that’s key.
[0:10:15] DC: Yes. That goes to your total point. Most of the time though, I wasn’t in that situation. I was in a situation where I was dictating. And I’m saying dictating because those specs don’t come out of nowhere in an advertising agency, which is why customers get infuriated when the printers take it upon themselves to change the specs because I need to triple bid apples to apples. I can’t have somebody changing out the paper and then –
[0:10:44] NT: That’s my point. The agencies are exactly what I said, silos. They’re not in the same room discussing the project. The right way to really do it is the stakeholders and the decision makers need to be talking with the design team. So it all comes together and everybody. And then, yeah, that’s fascinating. And that’s what’s changed. You got print buyers. They only got what they’re supposed to do with you.
[0:11:05] DC: But I think this is a really important point. I know we’ve discussed it before. I didn’t realize until I wasn’t a print buyer in advertising agencies that how beholden I was to the printers I had and the equipment they had. And everything I learned, I learned from going on press checks on that particular piece of equipment.
For example, when digital printing first started, people would show it to us and it was blurry. I know we’ve talked about that was fuzzy in the beginning. And then when it wasn’t so fuzzy, we call our vendor and be like, “Look, we only need 500 of these things for a quick turnaround.” There’s a client’s having an event at a bar, whatever it might have been.
And if they didn’t have digital printing, they’re, “Ah, you don’t want to do that.” And then they give you 90 reasons why this is the end of the world if you use a digital press. And to the point where every time there was a possibility, now I am perpetuating that falsehood in the agency saying, “I’m not being responsible for digital printing. My printers are telling me it’s going to look like shit.” Until they bought a digital press, Noel, then guess what happened? Digital printing was the best thing in the entire world. And why wasn’t I doing it?
[0:12:21] NT: And that’s the problem, right? And David, I want your perspective on this because I know you work this way. And we probably work differently but the same. What do you think – and you get in the process really early as I do, David. But how important do you think that relationship and trust is? I mean, I know you’re like me. People call you because they know you or they’ve seen your work. And they want to trust you, and they don’t know what to do. But for everybody, what do you think about, this the early part of the process? And tell us how you do it?
[0:12:56] DD: Well I think your approach to your prospect starts with a conversation. I’m listening to what you’re saying, and it’s pinpointing parts of my career where I’ve had to come out with an idea. Back then, you were really limited with your equipment and such. But now there’s such a variety to work with that, as you begin to discuss this production with me, it begins to enlighten me as to a direction.
That direction and that conversation is then going to, as far as I’m concerned, be the backbone of this production. We’ve said it before, a client doesn’t know what they don’t know. And here we are. We need to be educated to be able to spoon feed and help and show possibilities.
Because in showing possibilities and showing samples, for me, when I go out to see a client, especially somebody new who I really don’t know, I’ll bring five or six samples. They could be really diversified, which one might include hot stamping, one might include die cutting, one might be a very simple job on a coated paper, the other one might use a digital technique or what have you. But we put them down, and we begin to have a conversation on that. That conversation begins to lead into ideas. But those ideas coming from a partner that you trust, or maybe it’s the beginning of a relationship where they don’t have the same type of response and communication with another vendor really begins to lead to something that’s far greater than if you did it independently.
In the very beginning, when you are raising a family and you need business and you’re desperate, you bring in what you need to bring in and you learn along the way. But we’re beyond that as of this point. And you can begin to see direction of any kind of production that comes in through conversation. And I’m hoping that that conversation will help to inspire me to bring in new ideas.
And I also want to listen to what they’re saying because there are trigger words in what they want to see. They want something that’s soft paper, but it’s got to be substantial to it. And we got to make sure that it could be wiped off because it’s going to be handed from person to person. And you begin to hear these different aspects of what they’re really looking for. And then you can collect that information and you can say, “Okay, now I have a direction and I have an idea.” And that right there, that’s the partnership.
[0:15:39] NT: And that’s my point. Not to interrupt. That’s my point. People think printing is a process. It is. But when you get to the printing, that is a process. It’s binary. It’s equipment. But to get there, you have to know what is implied, what you’re trying to do.
And you hit on something. You’re describing a relationship. And you know what? When people have a problem, what do they do? They go to therapy, or they get a good friend and they go, “Can I talk to you about something?” And people go, “Oh, no, but it’s printing.” It’s the exact same thing.
Even you and I, David, if we were going to make something together, I go, “Listen, this is what I’m thinking.” You go, “You’re crazy.” We might talk. We might have a drink. You might talk about a lot of different things. But at the end, you can solve the problem together or get good advice from your friend.
In this point, the client, you’re describing a situation where you’re letting the client maybe tell you what they’re really feeling because it’s hard to tell. They might say, “Well, I want you to come in here. I’m going to do this because some printer or someone said, ‘This is what you ought to do.’” But when you start talking, they might realize you got to let them go in a confession, right? What do you really like? What’s important about this? What’s it feel? And when they start opening up, you go in your mind, you go, “Well, bingo. They’re not going to want –” Right?
And if you start out in the wrong direction, it’s going to take a lot longer to get there. And it’s trust. And that’s what you’re describing. And you described the same thing, Deborah, right? I mean, and in the old days, and we all said the old days, and I’m sitting here feeling bad for Deborah because a long time ago, I didn’t really go to the ad agencies because it was too –
[0:17:10] DC: Yeah. They charged pain in the ass tax as they should.
[BREAK]
[0:17:16] DC: Get ready to turn up the volume on print. PrintFM is a global internet radio station dedicated exclusively to print and graphic communications, accessible around the clock in every time zone. No more searching across channels and apps. PrintFM brings relevant topical programming from Print Media Centr, Girls Who Print, and an array of industry contributors who bring their own perspectives, guests, and conversations to the mix. PrintFM also broadcasts from industry events, with live shows being scheduled throughout the year. Visit printfm.com to explore our daily programming, event schedules, and opportunities to share your content or sponsor our shows. Expert discussions, real-world insight, and industry voices are just a click away. Listen long and prosper.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:18:14] DC: I want to add one thing about this initial stage before we move on is that something new that has come into this conversation, I think more so after the pandemic, it’s about the feelings of the piece now. When I was printing – feelings? Screw your feelings who cares about how you. But the consideration of how you want the recipient to feel about the piece, which is a reflection of your brand, or your business, or yourself has come into this conversation. And that can be interpreted by materials, techniques and everything that you’re speaking, and good design of course.
[0:19:00] NT: Well, see my big red dot at the beginning concept or idea. We’re spending so much time figuring that out. But you got to go to the end, right? If you look at the end dot, desired result, that’s what you’re talking about. That should be part of the first conversation. Who are your customer? They may describe something to you and go, “Wait, I thought you sold X.” That is just as important to talk about the finish as it is to talk about the beginning. Because if you don’t know what the finish looks like – and we all know, “Oh man, this is going to be tough. But I picture it a month from now, three months from now, win an award, even though I don’t want it, but a month from now, got a happy client. We nailed it. They’re getting lots of activity from it.” That has to be part of the initial, and that’s what you’re describing.
And a lot of people go, “Oh yeah, we’re going to talk about the – we’re going to figure it all out.” But if you’re making something to go nowhere – and where you’re going is the desired result. And yeah, I mentioned things like schedule and budget, but it’s also make the people that buy my product go, “Whoa, maybe it’s that.” And I’ve heard that. So that’s very, very important.
And I’ve literally had somebody look at me and making a book and they go, “All right. It’s all important. And I know you make beautiful books. Look at this.” They picked up a book and they dropped it on the coffee table. They go, “That’s the sound I wanted to make.” And I’m like, “Just kill me.” But I appreciate that. I’m going, “Whoa, I know what I’m dealing with.” Right?
[0:20:20] DC: Yeah.
[0:20:21] NT: Yeah. I think that was very, very astute of you because I keep talking about the beginning, but you can plan all you want if you’re not planning for anything, right? You can buy and try on 30 sets of new clothes, if you don’t have a dance or somewhere to go to, well, what’s the point?
[0:20:39] DC: And I just want to add that that also implies that there’s research being done too. We’re talking about how to make yourself a more valuable vendor. If you think about there might be – and I don’t know if this is true or not, so I’m just giving an example. There might be an assumption from people who work at charities who are trying to attract – I’m talking like they have a specific list for $100,000 or more donors. And they might think we need to make this print like sing and really be special because we want so much money from people. We want this amount of money from people.
But there might actually be research that says that the people willing to give $100,000 do not want to see their money in gold foiled leaf singing things. It needs to be substantial. It needs to make them feel it’s legitimate. But the extra money that was spent on – they feel the same way about the galas. I’m going to this gala I’m paying all this money, and it could be going to the charity itself.
So, I understand that it’s a business, but I think that just understanding the motivation and wanting to honor it, but then you still don’t come back in and think, “Oh, well, they want to attract $100,000 donors. We’re going to go crazy on this.” And expensive things attract people who have who can afford that.
[0:22:08] NT: That’s not always true.
[0:22:09] DC: That’s what I’m saying.
[0:22:10] NT: Yeah. And you need to do your due diligence.
[0:22:12] DC: You make yourself more valuable when you come back and you say, “Okay, we’ve done some research. We work with a research company, whatever it is, and this is what we found out. In order to get people to donate $100,000, they need three different touch points. We need to get them at this particular time of the year, right around at the end of the year when they need to dump money or they’re going to be taxed on it, whatever it is.” And that now separates you from the pile of other people as long as you have great suggestions for everything else that you said, the design, the materials, and everything else that makes that print communication work.
[0:22:53] NT: Metrics exist on everything now. I find people don’t utilize them enough. It’s there. The data is there. People that want to do one thing might ignore it because they want to do what they want to do. David, what do you think? I mean, I was hoping you guys asked me some questions. But David, do you agree? Or do you start at the end sometimes to figure out your beginning, I guess?
[0:23:13] DD: Right. I mean, but we’ve discussed that where we talk about finishing and how we achieve that, and work backwards so we don’t find out that we’re making mistakes along the way in that. But what Deborah had just said about a charity, I had a meeting yesterday, just yesterday. It’s a great organization. I don’t want to say the name of them yet. But what they do is they put children who have muscular dystrophy on horses to help move their muscles. And they have a set group of people that donate no matter what they donate.
And when I sat with them, their invitations are pretty bland for the dollar amount that they’re spending. And in regard to what you just said, Deb, about bells and whistles and adding to it – this is an experiment. And I showed them something different and maybe a different approach than they were going to do. And she said, “No matter what, this is our budget.” I said, “Okay. I want to prove something to you. So, if we’re above that budget, I’ll pay the difference on that.” Because next year you will see how much better of a response that you get. Who else responded to it and gave you donation that didn’t do it before. And next year you’ll have the budget to do something similar to this. But it’s all geared by design. It isn’t just photos. It’s feelings. It’s very simple.
And what we’re doing, just so I can state, is how many children have muscle diseases. And what we’re doing is a series of horses on the cover, but one of them is going to be stamped. It’s going to be digitally stamped or however we’re going to do it to show that one horse. Well, before anybody opens up the invitation, it’s a gala. They’re going to understand that there is a horse amongst a lot of horses that’s different than the other.
That’s the point of art. And that’s the point of having a conversation. And the designer was there and their committee was there. I kind of hesitated to go and get involved because of the “committee”. But because I know what I know, I offered it to them, and they’re going to go with it.
Now, what am I going to get from it? Well, besides having a beautiful piece, I’m at least going to get the response, the return on their investment and use it elsewhere to show what an upgrade is. So, not necessarily an upgrade where somebody might say they’re spending too much money, but how about, “Wow. They’re really treating us different.”
[0:23:13] DC: Right. And I just want to add that this is a situation where if any printers listening to this, if this is the reason why you want to automate your print shop, this is the reason why. David can come and do more for the same budget. And that’s the only difference is that there’s more automation. There’s less human touches, which means there’s more margin to play with and more things that you can do.
[BREAK]
[0:26:27] NT: Hi, I’m Noel Tocci, founder of Tocci Made. The printing industry has changed quite a bit, and I’ve learned a lot since I joined my brother’s small but mighty printing company in Newark, New Jersey, back in 1980. Over the years, while focusing primarily in the design and creative communities, I’ve come to understand and believe wholeheartedly that powerful, effective, and impactful print communication always lives at the intersection of great design, appropriate materials, and thoughtfully curated execution. Making beautiful work is a journey from concept, or idea, to desired result. Tocci Made is here to help you find your way and create work that is not only effective but something you can be proud of. Head to toccimade.com and find out how we can help.
[EPISODE CONTINUED
[0:27:13] DC: Noel, I do have a question for you if you don’t mind.
[0:27:16] NT: I would love it.
[0:27:17] DC: Okay. It’s going to throw a little wrench into this, but you know I’m the wrench thrower of the family.
[0:27:22] NT: That’s why I love you.
[0:27:24] DC: Okay. Assets. Okay, at some point you’re doing a piece and you’re going to need photography. You’re going to need – who knows what you’re going to need. Now, there’s many situations that we’re in right now that that art is being created by an AI engine. I don’t think we should be fighting against that. I think that the industry has to embrace it. That’s my opinion, but I’m interested in yours.
But my question to you is, in the process, where is it the printer’s responsibility to say, “Look, if you’re going to give us some AI-generated art to put in your brochure, this is how it needs to be created. This is the only way it’s going to be reproduced. I will let you know right now that we need to put a little money aside for color correction because it is not actually an art program.”
So, it’s new. I guess we can account for it in specifications sort of. But when people have pictures, they think that they’re all just printable. Where does that come in? And how do you have those discussions with people? You took this photo on your camera, and it can’t be a billboard.
[0:28:40] NT: For me, first meeting, “I’m going to make this. It’s going to be gorgeous.” What are your assets? Let’s talk about it. And as soon as they say AI, you go, “We got to look at them. I got to check them. I got to go and pre-press. Got to make sure everything’s going to work.”
Because the first thing we do with anything, even if it’s best photographers in the world, but it’s three different photographers, they’re all going to produce differently. We have to profile and so forth to make it feel like a book. Not to change. And I’m talking I’ve done some of the best in the world, not to change their style or anything else to make it work together. It’s the same as AI.
And I want to tell you something about AI. I may have mentioned this once. It was on press about two months ago, and we were doing a big book, a crazy book, and somebody noticed, we noticed something in one of the images. I go, “Oh, we should retouch that a little bit.” So, we would go into Photoshop normally, right? Hold the press, put another form on, make four plates. It was worth it. Right? Just a little touchup in the picture.
So, they make new plates, they come back, and we start pulling. I’m going, “Why does this look strange?” The guy goes, “Yeah, it saves time. The guy’s not in. I did it. I corrected it with AI.” Right? Which they do sometime. Well, it’s just a clone, or you know what I mean. Or you know you brush in something. And no one had ever realized that it looked great on the screen. Couldn’t tell. Wow. Genius, right?
But something wherein now they’re photo mechanical but they made plates and went on offset press, and something’s not talking to something else. That’s what I’m talking about. I don’t know what I have. If I get assets and I’m looking at them, it’s a known quantity. AI is not unless I can see it. And will it work with everything else? And maybe what I have to do to print it properly is going to change the way I print something early on right away. I want to know what it’s about.
And we do this all the time. I actually did a piece that won all kinds of awards by a famous photographer, but the whole thing was shot with a cell phone, but it was on purpose. It’s going to be dark? It’s going to be light. They go, “We want film noir.” I go, “Well, that’s what you’re going to get. It’s going to be plugged up or bright.” But it was beautiful. But it was understood the whole thing was that way.
[0:30:42] DC: Exactly. Right.
[0:30:44] NT: But how many people come to me and they go, “We’re doing this, and we had the event.” Everybody now substitutes. They don’t want to buy images they have to pay the rights to. They don’t have a photographer.” Well, everybody took pictures. Sally had two drinks, and she’s got a cheap iPhone. And you want that as a three-quarter-paged image. And you’re right, that’s when it has to happen.
And that’s again back to the relationship and the talking. It’s not, “What are you, an idiot? This isn’t going to work.” Or why don’t you focus on the assets that are going to work. But your AI question, people pull things together now. And I’m so confused. As David and yourself, everything is native of packaged InDesign files or Illustrator. It’s Adobe. It all talks to everything else.
And if I have a dollar now for every time – I want to do this 300-page book. And they give you a document in these new programs that the kids use. You know what I mean? There’s nothing wrong with that, but they’re not for that. They’re for social media. And then you spend an hour going, “I don’t even understand the pagination of what you’re doing.” And so it’s similar.
But you’re right. I’m glad you brought it up. And David, do you come across this. And I’d like you to ask me a question if you want, David. But I mean, you must come across this, right? You sit down, you figure it out, the trust, everything we talked about.
[0:31:57] DC: Yeah, he made. Didn’t you win awards for safari book that everybody took pictures on their iPhones, on their phones?
[0:32:03] DD: Yeah. And that was all done through AI, too. We did the Safari book. Everybody took the pictures. They were flat. They had no vibrance to them. Once I determined what press we were going to use and knew how it laid down its toner, we went into AI and we gave it an overall move. And if I tell you that we did 128 photos in a matter of just an hour, maybe an hour.
[0:32:35] DC: Oh my god. Retouchers just fell off their chairs right now.
[0:32:39] DD: The gentleman that I used is a retoucher.
[0:32:44] DC: That’s what you need. Exactly.
[0:32:45] DD: Looking at it from his point of view and taking it. Remember desktop printing, where every printer, all of a sudden, was doing newsletters? And they all look the same, and they still do look the same. It’s that. You got to get beyond that. You got to get into the person that’s well trained, the person that knows the difference of what this move is going to make. Maybe we were really lucky. Maybe we were lucky in the fact that we didn’t have to go into individual areas and brighten them. It wasn’t what the book was about. But the end result is everything popped, and it became very easy.
Also, did this other book which is a religious book, a Hebrew book where the Hebrew was already in place in the file. There were images of a watercolor image on every spread going across. And AI was able to remove the Hebrew writing. We were able to go into the watercolor image and brighten it up and put back the Hebrew again. Now, if you ask me how I did that, I’m going to tell you, I hired the right person. That’s how we did it.
[0:33:59] DC: That’s part of the collaboration that Noel’s been talking about?
[0:34:02] DD: There you go. Do I feel secure that anybody can do it? No. And I think it’s really dangerous to say anybody could do it. I’ve dabbled in it before. I’ve done my home photos. I’ve took a mustache off my father, whatever it is. But when you really get into it and you’re talking about an abundance, I’m not talking about 10 images, I’m talking about 50, 100 images, you need somebody that’s pinpointed and understands that technology and is viewing it from there, it really becomes their form of art. They want to be the outstanding end of that part of the job.
[0:34:41] NT: No, they also want to understand what you’re going for. I work with guys that are professional photographers that are in the pre-press, and they’ll go, “But what’s it feel like? I can make them all. See this one?” And you kind of make them. But what you did with the cell phone pics, the guy knows what he’s doing. And because cell phones are kind of all off together, like he probably – I’m just guessing, open the 3/4 and get a little more shadow. So suddenly, you got shape.
And if you make them all look better, they no longer look like cell phone pictures. Again, it’s someone who’s asking you the question, like, “What is this going to feel like, Dave? What do you want it to be? What do you not like about it besides their cell phone pictures?” And he can interpret and do the right fix, use the right tool.
[0:35:21] DD: Well, how many times have you talked to a supplier and you begin to talk about how we’re going to build this project? And as you’re discussing it, you are discussing it with them, but crickets on the other end as compared to –
[0:35:35] NT: Don’t do it today.
[0:35:36] DD: Right? As compared to having a discussion with somebody and getting various interpretation of what could be. I mean, that leads to far greater things.
[0:35:49] NT: People mistake getting some detail and information to help them get closer to what you want with telling them what to do. And they can shut off. Do you know what I mean? Right.
[0:36:01] DC: Usually designers.
[0:36:02] NT: Yeah. Well, and even printers. It’s like, “Yeah. Yeah.”
[0:36:05] DC: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[0:36:06] NT: Just listen to me.
[0:36:07] DC: I’ve had brawls on press checks. Yes.
[0:36:09] NT: Yeah. You know what I mean? I go, “Listen, I know this is what’s going to happen here.” But how would you do it? You know what I mean? And then you get crickets. Or they’re like just waiting. So, they’re just going to do what they do. You’re in the wrong spot. Doesn’t make them wrong. It’s not a fit. And this is what I would urge people to from the very beginning. If you don’t like what you’re hearing or someone’s just listening to you, but you’re not making any progress towards a plan, it might be fine. But I don’t like fine. And most people don’t, right? All of my words, and do this and do that to get here. It’s for not if people are just going to do what they want to do or what they do every time as opposed to what would be indicated and possible in this situation.
[0:36:56] DC: Right.
[BREAK]
[0:37:00] DD: Are you a frustrated creative and want a print partner that takes an artisan approach? Do you want to be inspired with techniques that will enhance your next printed or packaging production? Or are you a printer that has unique abilities and need a liaison to enhance your exposure? I’m David Drucker, owner of highresolution printing. I am an independent creative consultant with access to every printing technology out there.
I work hand in hand with creatives and printers, creating projects that are complex, and require meticulous detail, and precision, from concept to completion. Want to see what I mean? Go to guruofprinting.com and get inspired.
[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[0:37:43] DC: All right, I have one more question for you, and then we’ll get final words on this topic. My question/statement is again coming from years of experience. And what I want to talk about is the caveats of estimation, okay? A lot of times, printers forget to put them in there. And especially since we’re talking about AI, if I was giving anybody an estimate right now. First of all, you have to compensate for the fact that this quote is only good for 30 days or 2 weeks because the supply chain’s going crazy. So, you don’t want to lock yourself into a never-ending discussion. Well, okay, we’re going to pull the trigger. Well, I have to reestimate that because that estimates from 6 months ago. It’s not valid anymore.
First of all, everybody should be time limiting their estimates at the moment. But I think that there is a responsibility if all of this is leading to the desired result. There has to be some immediate – I don’t want to say push back, but parameter set by the printers. If you’re going to give us AI files, we may need to send them to a color corrector or a retoucher. We won’t know until you give us the files. So, we reserve the right to create a second quote for something like that. Or if we can’t get the paper when we need to get the paper.
Where are you with what I call the fine print? Because I will tell you that as a customer, I say to everybody I work with, you tell me everything right now, all the bad news. I was like, “I will not honor anything in fine print after the fact. Nothing.”
[0:39:28] NT: When I do my due diligence, and we have those conversations, and I know what I’m going to make, I make an excruciating estimate broken into 15 things. Right down to the name, the quantities, the paper, the process, the way we’re doing it. I even list the equipment we’re doing it on. Not that they’re going to know. I am very finite about it.
And I have that conversation first. Before I put it in writing. I go, “All right, I think I figured out best way to do this. This is what I’m thinking. This part’s going to be digital. It’s going to be that. It’s all beyond the estimate.” I don’t expect them to understand it. I’m not doing it to protect myself as much as it’s a second chance to make them understand what goes into it and what we’re doing.
[0:40:09] DC: Wait. I’m sorry. Are you talking about the estimate you give to your customer or the request that you give to the printer?
[0:40:13] NT: Correct. No. Well, both.
[0:40:17] DC: Well, that was kind of my point. It’s an educational moment, because a lot of the buyers have no idea unless you caveat these things. They’re going say, “Well, you never told me that.” I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I just wanted to understand who you meant by customer.
[0:40:31] NT: No, no, no. Not at all. No. That’s to the customer. But that comes after part of figuring it out is talking to me and goes, “Listen, this is what I’m doing. Yeah, I know. You got his two sheet wise forms. I need this one to run there. We’ll run a smaller form. I got the grain this way. Everybody agree.” We do all of that. And I document that every step of the way. It’s just as important, as you said, to document it with your vendor because it makes a difference.
Long story short, I’m a book guy, right? You can run, I don’t know, up to 9 by 12. You can run a 16-paged font. That means you can run 16 pages. You got whatever. A 64-paged book, you got four forms. I’ve come to the way it opens. I only smyth sew. I’ve started running 12 pages. It’s a little more because now I got the grain, it opens better. But I let people know that. They’re like, “It’s a little more.” I said, “Yeah. But see this?” And I make dummies. Well, I like that better. I go, “Well, that’s why that’s a little more.” But that’s why all of those little things, they have to be straightened out on both ends. They do. And the printer’s not wrong, but they go, “Yeah, but why wouldn’t–” We won’t talk about that. We already decided this is what we’re doing for the desired result.
But you’re right, you have to nail it down on both sides. And you could put all the details for a client to sign, but it’s more about like what I just said. Yes, it’s a little more. Maybe you got another estimate, but I’m doing it this way because it’s going to feel like this, which is what you said. Why does that one open nice and this one doesn’t? Or this or that.
Yeah, it’s a lot of keeping track but keeping people on track. And you’re right, there’s no, “Well, you know.” No. We all understand each other or we’re not starting. We’re not. And I mean I have some now that are just not starting because I’m like we’re not – it’s like negotiating. We don’t have a settlement yet. So we’re not friends yet. We’re not going for a beer. We’re not on the same page. You know what I mean?
And there’s nothing wrong with that because you’re right. If you do, well, I thought you understood that that would – why would you think I would do that? Well, because I made you say you would or I went somewhere else. Sorry. David.
[0:42:30] DD: Subject to viewing art. You can tell a client how to set everything up. And you have expectations, whether they’re the same expectations or where they’re going to set it up. What I do generally is I give options along the line. If we got to do this, then we got to do that. If you give me this, then you give me that. We’re not going to know anything until we see what we’re getting. But what’s your end result? What do you really want to achieve? Well, this is the way we’re going to need to do it. It’s different. It’s very different now.
And yet, I’m just saying I am covered monetarily. And I add something in there because there’s always something where you’re going to need it. And whether it’s changing a die or changing an image and retouching it, there’s always something in there that I leave in as a miscellaneous.
And in the average of things, it all covers itself down the line. If it’s a big expense, then that’s something I have to give my client the option of taking it back and reworking it based on the specifications that I give them. But then again, those specifications should be given right up front. So you meet expectation of what I’m supposed to do and how I’m supposed to do it.
[0:43:44] DC: Right.
[0:43:45] DD: There isn’t a big luxury anymore for timing. I mean, I don’t see that. You’re going to get it jammed down and you want everything to go through the funnel as smooth as it can, but it’s a stumble. You’re not going to go into this industry and not have that.
[0:44:01] DC: Yeah, I feel that there’s a real teaching moment in those caveats, in those conversations about all the things that can go wrong, garbage in, garbage out, without scaring people, but just letting them know that there is nothing a press can do about a blurry photo. There’s nothing we can do about that.
[0:44:22] NT: And we have to consider it up front and then talk about it.
[0:44:24] NT: Yes. I know. But believe it or not, people print things with blurry photos and say, “Well, that’s what the client gave me.”
[0:44:31] NT: Oh, I know.
[0:44:32] DC: And they go about their lives. I know. Please. I go crazy when I hear the phrase sellable print. I know we’ve spoken about that.
[0:44:39] DD: It’s commercially acceptable.
[0:44:41] DC: Yes, it’s commercially acceptable.
[0:44:42] NT: Don’t say that again.
[0:44:43] DC: Oh, sorry. No, I didn’t mean to upset you. But I think there’s a real teaching moment in there, like why it’s important that we chose this paper stock over another one. And if that is not acceptable with the printer or for whatever reason that it’s not even like presented to the customer to choose. Because this has happened to me a million times. There has been a six-month discussion. There have been swatch books sent to the client. The client picks the paper stock. That’s their paper stock. It’s in the brand standards. We send estimates out and the printers come back and they’re like, “Well, it would have been too expensive, so we switched the paper.”
And just educating the customers more on how that all works through, “Look, I’m going to do exactly what you asked me to quote. But before you triple bid this, let’s just discuss there might be better ways of doing it.” For example, instead of rushing the whole thing, can you take it in split shipments? I mean, there’s a lot of ways that printers can actually be very proactive with customers. Not tell them no. Give them options and help them be successful in the print process to achieve their desired results.
Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today. Noel, thanks for the topic. And everybody, if you go into the show notes where you’re listening, or if the app is not showing the links, you can go to podcastsfromtheprinterverse.com and download the PDF. But actually, even simpler than that, there’ll be a link in the show notes. You can just download it. That’s what I should have said, David and Noel. So, gentlemen, thank you so much. And to everybody out there, until next time, make it long with print and prosper.
Thanks for listening to Podcasts From the Printerverse. Please subscribe, click some stars, and leave us a review. Connect with us through printmediacentr.com, we’d love to hear your feedback on our shows and topics that are of interest for future broadcasts. Until next time, thanks for joining us. Print long and prosper.
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